We’ve seen it all…

[00:00:00] Katie Stoller: It’s supposed to be crazy and chaotic, but it’s not supposed to, like, hurt. Like, once things start getting, like, painful, that’s when you know it’s, like, probably We were told, like, if you’ve slept two hours in six days, that’s normal. If you get called into your office at 3 a.m. to fix a deck because your boss messed something up, that’s normal.

Like, these things are not normal. Like, I don’t know why we normalize them, but I’m glad that, like, the cultural shift has happened because it was wild for a while.

[00:00:34] Jessy: Hey guys, welcome back to the Wim Podcast. You’ve got Jessi Grossman as your host. It’s nice to be with you guys, as always. This week’s episode is so good, you guys. They’ve seen it all. And they are Katie Stoller and Lauren Ludlow, who are going to be talking about lots and Lots of interesting things today. We are very excited to dive in.

We are getting candid [00:01:00] today. We’re keeping it real excited about this episode, which is another guest host. So if you guys are new to the podcast, warm, warm welcome to you guys. If you’re listening or watching on YouTube, go ahead and like and subscribe. If you are listening on any platform and you enjoy this episode.

I ask that you just share it. That’s all you have to do. No big, huge commitment is necessary, but we would love to grow this podcast this year. So if you could share this episode with people who are colleagues of yours or people who are trying to or want to get into the industry, just people who are as obsessed with influence and marketing as we are, share it with them.

They subscribe and enjoy, these episodes as well. So if you are looking for ways to enjoy the community of WHM or you’re like, what is WHM in the first place? Well, first of all, WHM is short for [00:02:00] Women in Influencer Marketing. I feel like every few episodes I have to, I don’t know. Explain who we are, and what we’re all about.

We’ve been around since 2017, you guys. So we’ve been around for almost about eight years at this point, building community, bringing women together and just doing incredible things for the sake of lifting up our industry as a whole. We are all about sharing information with each other, collaborating, and partnering for the sake of all, what is the phrase?

Like all tides lift ships. I don’t know. Um, Paraphrasing obviously, but you know what I mean? I always butcher that one, but you know, we’re here to come together and to make a significant difference. I think that there’s a lot on the horizon in 2025. That’s going to be interesting to see. And at the top of that list, of course, what the heck is going to happen with TikTok?

It’s crazy to me. That is a political issue. I mean, it is, and it isn’t. Because if you just talk to people in our industry, they [00:03:00] think about it as just content and the content platform. If you think about it with a broader scope, it’s about national security and has now become a political chess piece for politicians in office right now.

So as a little bit of a political junkie myself, I’m very intersects with our industry, so it’ll be fascinating to see. See, we didn’t cover, of course, the tick-tock BAM that happened a few weeks ago, and I’m kind of glad we didn’t because it lasted what, like 12 hours or something.

But of course, in the coming weeks, it will be coming to a head. I don’t know if you guys have seen what I did, which is like the number of interesting people that have put in a. Did to buy Tick Tock look at, uh, including Mr. Beast with a few others is one of the many people who have put in a bid to buy Tick Tock because of course the, the government has said, you know, Tick Tock has to be sold or else it’s going to be banned in the U S.

So people have actually [00:04:00] been raising their hand. I didn’t quite realize that including Mr. Beast of all people. I have a lot of opinions on that, but we’re going to have a whole separate episode about it as things continue to heat up. So I’m going to stop talking because again, I’m excited for you during my maternity leave to enjoy these guest host episodes.

So without further ado, you’ve got Katie Stoller and Lauren Ludlow. Let’s get into it. Okay.

This show is sponsored by Women in Influencer Marketing, better known as WIM, the best online community for the creator economy. You will meet fellow influencer marketers, you’ll meet brands, you’ll meet talent agencies to talk shop, get hired, and even find a mentor. When you become a member, do not forget to sign up.

Check out all of our incredible resources. For example, we have dozens of masterclasses from the top voices, TikTok, YouTube, award-winning agencies, and women who are paving the [00:05:00] way for us all. So if you want the chance to network with a FUSU in influencer marketing, check out what it takes to become a member, make more money, and have fun doing it.

Visit IamWim. Com slash join that’s I A M W I M. I am. Com slash join today. And I so look forward to seeing you more around the community. 

[00:05:25] Katie Stoller: Hi everybody. I’m so happy to be back on the Wynn podcast. This is Katie Stoller. For those that don’t know me, I’ve been on the podcast a couple of times, but. I am a freelance influencer marketer.

I work mostly with large global PR and advertising agencies, and I’ve been doing this for a long time. I’ve been a longtime WIM member, part of the original kind of crew, and I’m so excited for today because I’m going to be doing a really fun podcast episode with one of my great friends from WIM who’s also a longtime WIM member.

Her name is Lauren Ludlow. So Lauren, [00:06:00] give a little intro about yourself. 

[00:06:02] Lauren Ludlow: Hi, I’m Lauren Ludlow. I’m so excited to be here this morning. Um, I am an influencer marketing consultant as well. Very close with Katie and uh, I have created my consultancy here in New York called Ludlow Social where I help Brands and agencies fuel their influence or marketing efforts from start to finish, whether that’s their strategic planning for ambassador partnerships down to the nitty gritty execution.

And I’m also the co-founder of the beauty social, which is a monthly networking event here in New York. So if any members are listening and you know, you want to join a great event. Thought leaders specifically in the beauty industry come on down and we’d love to have you. 

[00:06:45] Katie Stoller: Yeah. I’m so like, every time you do those posts, I’m always like, I wish I was in New York because those events look so amazing.

[00:06:51] Lauren Ludlow: Some maybe in 2025 we’ll travel to Chicago. I don’t know. 

[00:06:54] Katie Stoller: You got to branch out. And you can find both of us on LinkedIn. We’re both pretty active on LinkedIn. [00:07:00] My handle is just Katie Stoller, Lauren’s Lauren Ludlow. So definitely look us up. We’d be happy to chit-chat and kind of go even further than this podcast over on LinkedIn.

So let us know if you want to chat more. Okay. So to kick it off, we wanted to play this fun Influencer marketing version of Never Have I Ever so we’ve pulled some funny kind of random scenarios that both of us have been through that maybe other people have never found themselves in these predicaments and we’re just going to tell a little kind of brief tales of kind of like sticky situations or funny situations that we’ve been in.

So, Lauren, I’ll let you kick it off with your first Never Have I Ever. 

[00:07:37] Lauren Ludlow: Okay. I feel like this one is super relevant, actually, for a big launch that just happened this week. But, Never Have I Ever, and I think a lot of these we, like, actually have done, so it’s a little bit funny in that way, but Never Have I Ever had to vet 16, 000 influencers for an ambassador program.

[00:07:57] Katie Stoller: That just, like, made my stomach drop when the thousand [00:08:00] word came out. 

[00:08:01] Lauren Ludlow: So, some folks might know the, uh, Sephora squad. Year year-long program with Sephora and all of its partners just launched yesterday for, I think its sixth year. And that was one of the programs I led earlier on in my career. And we, with a lot of tools, I will say a lot of sorting filters, all the shebang, but yeah, there is a dedicated team that’s looking through every single influencer application down to 16.

Thousand applications. 

[00:08:27] Katie Stoller: It’s insane. That is wild. Oh my god. 

[00:08:29] Lauren Ludlow: Congrats to anyone who made the Sephora squad because it truly is a testament to Not just having incredible stats, but you’re truly a visionary if you got that title. 

[00:08:39] Katie Stoller: That is wild. We were just at the Chicago WIM event, and there was a panel, some great panelists, and one of the sponsors, I don’t want to say the name because I’m probably going to get it wrong, but one of the sponsors just announced, one of the tech platforms just announced that they’re Doing an AI vetting tool that’s like, and there’s [00:09:00] been AI vetting tools, like as she was saying, and I’m like, this is not new.

Like, there have been other AI vetting tools, but apparently, this one is more advanced and it can read sarcasm in a way. And it can read. Slang and like TikTok kind of slang that might not get picked up. Um, and was really intricate at finding different vetting criteria. So I’m excited to see it. I think it’s kind of still in development.

And we can, I’m, Jesse and the team at WIIM, and can share more about it once it’s fully developed. Because I’m giving you kind of a preview, but, But there is something to say.

[00:09:32] Lauren Ludlow: If we’re more efficient with those types of tools, like. Let’s do it. Yes. 

[00:09:37] Katie Stoller: I think some of them claim to be AI-powered and I’m using quotes for anyone not watching and then are just like an old school set of filters that don’t catch a lot.

But if we can kind of harness the power of AI to really help with these vetting processes, it’ll take hours and so much money off the table. From manually having to do it and hiring a bunch of interns to do it by [00:10:00] hand. Okay, I’ll pivot to my Never Have I Ever. So one of ours on our list was Never Have I Ever had a last-minute influencer back out of a major campaign.

And my story is more of never having them even sign on, to begin with. So basically I was working with a pretty well-known cleaning supply company. They’re in, you know, grocery stores and all that. So well known and the client had their mind set on this one very unique type of influencer. Not general lifestyle, not, you know, 25 through 35 age.

It was like a specific person. I don’t want to say too much, but we were convinced that she’d be excited to work with us. It made sense. It was an authentic match and we had a really funny kind of idea of what we wanted to do with her. The moral of the story as, we started out with like a fair number, but I wasn’t, I told the client, I’m like, I don’t think she’s going to go for this.

I think we’re going to have to go up and we went up like in increments of 30, 000 until we got to like, I think the last offer was like 115, [00:11:00] 120 for a UGC not even going on her feed post. And ultimately she declined. And My face was like, what? So, and that does not happen often. Like, I feel like that’s very rare that you can get a lot of extra budget and still have someone say, No, thanks.

Even though that’s I’m kind of so 

[00:11:17] Lauren Ludlow: proud of that influencer for staying true to who they are. 

[00:11:21] Katie Stoller: I think it was more about timing and just like, Not having Yeah, like not having the bandwidth. I don’t think it I think like, the brand made sense, but I mean, I, all I was thinking to myself is, must be nice to turn down that paycheck.

[00:11:34] Lauren Ludlow: Right, send it my way, please. I know. I’m like, can 

[00:11:36] Katie Stoller: I do it with my like $6? 

[00:11:38] Lauren Ludlow: All right. That’s so funny. Um, what else do you get for us? Let’s see. Never have I ever witnessed an influencer’s drama play out. And a fact to 

[00:11:52] Katie Stoller: campaign. Ooh, can’t wait for this too. 

[00:11:56] Lauren Ludlow: This was like back in my early agency days, [00:12:00] a lot of like where I cut my teeth was in Procter and Gamble.

And this was at a time when CoverGirl was under P& G’s umbrella. They’re now with Cody, but we were doing an initiative launching male ambassadors, which at that time was a really big deal for CoverGirl kind of dipping their toe in the male. Makeup artistry space and some folks might remember James Charles was like the crown jewel of beauty boys, but he also came with a lot of drama.

[00:12:31] Katie Stoller: Yes. Do you know, I saw him randomly at a mall in Chicago, in the Chicago suburbs? Shout out to Woodfield Mall. It was Jax. Just like, and there I’ve never seen a, I thought like Beyonce was there. I’ve never seen a line going, like, down the road to see her. Yeah. He was like, 

[00:12:50] Lauren Ludlow: no one’s business that, I mean, there were a couple of instances of just like his own personal elements coming into the campaign, making a lot of headlines, but [00:13:00] that was interesting because it taught me about crisis communications and brands having to think about influencers just as they would a celebrity partnership.

In creating, you know, how they want to respond to whether it’s allegations, whether it’s defamation like there’s a lot of different ways that our brands have had to prepare themselves. And that was my first taste at doing crisis communication with an influencer.  

[00:13:29] Katie Stoller: God, the piping hot tea you probably have from that.

[00:13:32] Lauren Ludlow: I’ll have tea. The things that I’ll go to my grave with are just, yeah, the archives are funny. Oh my god, that’s so funny. 

[00:13:39] Katie Stoller: Okay, I’ll do one more. Let’s see. I just saw one. Oh, what about a brand change? Like the trajectory of the program mid-program when you’re working with a bunch of influencers. It’s just happened to me I’m in the middle of doing it.

I’m working right now with a big PR agency One of their clients is a big huge portfolio company the brands [00:14:00] under it. I’m working with one of the brands It’s in Walmart Target big brand that everyone knows and when I signed on to do this project It was kind of like a general lifestyle. It’s like a product that’s like fairly inexpensive But if anyone could purchase it it would fit great in their house.

It’s this Kind of home decor type of thing, but, you know, very simple, streamlined messaging of just like, try this out if you’re this specific type of person that likes this design, whatever. I was like, this is fun, you know, lots of creative freedom. They sent, they all sent back their concepts, and I think it was right before the first draft was due, that the client came back and said, we want to do a holiday campaign.

And, like, we had done no briefing in the realm of holiday. We were, like, me and the team, we all just had, like, a collective, like, huh? Like, what? Like, like, everything had been approved. I mean, the amount of time that went into, like, approving the briefs, as we all know, takes forever. So, all of that had been approved by legal and compliance and everyone.

So, our solution, which, again, you know, could have been a better solution, but we had no [00:15:00] time, was just to incorporate a couple of words about preparing for the holidays for hosting and stuff. Wow. Which, like, is an easy fix, but also, like, probably not the most creative, but You have to work with what you’re given, time-wise.

So, we basically just went back to each of them, I think there’s like influencers, and we’re just like, thank you for your effort on this concept, but somehow can you weave in a sentence or two about just, like, hosting, and it ended up being fine. But it’s always fun when you get those emails and your stomach just kind of, like, drops, because you’re like, what?

I’m already, the ship has already left the station. 

[00:15:33] Lauren Ludlow: We have already contracted everyone. Yeah. That’s an interesting dovetail, there’s another one on here of having to explain why an influencer is going to be effective to a senior executive and kind of that person who controls the entire budget, you have to convince them the why and all of those details of how it’s going to be positive for their brand, but I think what they miss is all those little details, like [00:16:00] if that senior executive thought, I need a holiday campaign.

It has to be our biggest initiative yet. It needs to prove the most sales, all this stuff. But like you were briefed to just add a few sentences, that content probably actually doesn’t match their objective at the end of the day because the two didn’t speak to each other. And I just find that that happens so often.

And it’s my hunch is influencer marketing at times because you have executives not always viewing the content. And through the same lens that we are in the execution seat. 

[00:16:36] Katie Stoller: Totally. Yeah, there’s just so many layers. And I think that’s why I get sometimes frustrated and a little feisty with people on LinkedIn.

Is because, you know, people want this like black and white answer. Like, why didn’t, why did the campaign change? Why is the brief so extensive? Why, why are you scripting out concepts ahead of time? Which like. Whether or not I agree with it, sometimes it’s required and I’m like what you don’t get when you haven’t worked [00:17:00] on a brand like you and I have the PNGs of the world, the Kimberly Clarkson of the world, the S.

E. Johnson of the world, and if you, and to not to their credit, if you haven’t done it, why would you know that? Like, it’s not something that, you know, you necessarily learn in school, but when you are on our side and you see the layers, it’s like layer upon layer and there’s levels of that. And then some people come in midway through and.

Right now I’m on a program where, like, the main brand manager just left and went to another brand and a new person came in. So we’re, like, basically having to, like, re-educate their person. And just the, the amount of layers makes things more complex sometimes. And does sometimes impact the level of creativity and sometimes quality, unfortunately.

But it’s one of those balancing acts that, like, people like you and me have to do of, like, We don’t want to make the content suck, but we also have to please our stakeholders and make sure that the business objectives are being 

[00:17:55] Lauren Ludlow: exactly, 

[00:17:55] Katie Stoller: you know, paid attention to. 

[00:17:58] Lauren Ludlow: Yeah, that ability to build that trust and relationship with the influencer, though, so they still have to the best of our ability, really positive collaboration, a positive experience.

That is, for me, that is always my north star whenever I’m doing a campaign, because I think those twists and turns and pivots, like, can easily put a bad taste in somebody’s mouth, but if you’re thinking about it through the lens of, like, the creators at the center, we want them to have a good experience, we want to make sure that they’re not uh, Pinched on content reviews and crazy edits.

I find that helps. Yes, 

[00:18:31] Katie Stoller: 100%. I was just talking to someone about this too. It’s like, especially being like people that work with agencies like you and me, we’re sort of middlemen a lot of the time. And as much as my clients are number one, they’re the ones paying me like they’re my number one concern.

If I don’t have that same level of respect and You know, care for the influencer, the whole thing isn’t going to work. So I think, you know, when you get yourself in these situations if anyone listening has [00:19:00] been in this situation where like things are going crazy and you feel sort of out of control for me, and I think kind of what you just said.

The number one thing is just transparency and apologizing when you need to, like, I feel like there’s this kind of like feeling like, well, the brand dictates the program and the brand’s got the purse strings, and I’ve been, you know, I’ve said that before, because there are times where, like, the brand says what the brand says, like, it just is that way.

But at the same time, if I know that there’s like chaos going on the brand and it’s going to be a bumpy road, the first email I’m sending once that contract is signed is like, look, this is going to be a chaotic program. I’m here for you to help you through it. I’m going to keep you as updated as I can.

Things are going to change. Timelines are going to change. You might need to wear a pink shirt instead of a red shirt. Like little silly things might come into play for this program. And I’m going to be here for you, making sure you’re comfortable. If something doesn’t feel right, I will relay it back.

But like really kind of being that like [00:20:00] sense of calm for both sides is I think what makes our job difficult, but also kind of. You know, it’s like a special thing that we can do to ease everybody else. 

[00:20:09] Lauren Ludlow: I love that. That’s such a good tip. I have to think too. I mean, us being consultants, right? We’re working across multiple brands.

Your ability to be so transparent just also helps you then on your next campaign if you’re interfacing with that same talent manager that they know Right away like you’re gonna keep it real and I think that’s such an important tip to and still for any campaign manager Yes, totally quick question for you guys.

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[00:22:08] Katie Stoller: Okay. So last time you and I were talking, we got on this like topic of. The, like, I guess, like, the late 90s, early 2000s, like, fashion magazines.

And I feel like we have to, like, go back to this, because I find it so interesting. So, I’m going to tell, like, my little, like, kind of connection to it, and then I want to hear yours because I find it so fascinating that both of us sort of Draw drew on the same band. So For those listening who are millennials if you’re like me and I call myself an elder millennial born in the 80s like the North Star of like what success was for like a fun girl living in a big city was working at a magazine and Lauren and I were talking and we’re like it’s so funny because if you think of all the rom-coms during these times every like pretty cute little educated woman living in new [00:23:00] york And maybe Chicago, maybe L.

A., but mostly in New York, was working with a fashion magazine. And it’s like, Andy Anderson, you know, How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days, and I don’t know. I can go on and on. There are a million movies. 

[00:23:10] Lauren Ludlow: And they were all named Andy’s. Yeah, there was 

[00:23:12] Katie Stoller: like a million of them named Andy, right? Devil Wears Prada, wasn’t she Andy too?

But the funny thing is, Lauren’s story is a little different. I never necessarily wanted to be like a journalist. That was never sort of my goal. But the idea of this is like world of editorial and photo shoots. And for me, it was more on the publicist side. I was obsessed with Sex in the City and Samantha Jones.

That was sort of my person. I wanted to be in terms of, you know, Being a publicist and being out there and crafting stories for people. But I just think it’s so interesting because as influencer marketing was starting, it’s sort of killed this industry in a sense. It killed sort of the paper magazine world.

What we made out of it are these completely different careers. So I’ll let you tell your kind of side of it, but I think it’s so [00:24:00] fascinating. And I don’t know, I haven’t heard of anyone else kind of make this connection yet. 

[00:24:04] Lauren Ludlow: I mean, I hadn’t thought about it until you, you and I were. To be honest, my, relationship with it is.

So I always knew from a very early age that I wanted to work in communications. I wanted to work in advertising. At some point, I knew I wanted to be like the president or CEO. Like I was always trying to go for the top. And so I was fascinated by it, I had a subscription to Cosmo magazine growing up. Although my dad hated that I got this magazine like he would throw it in the trash.

As soon as we got it, because it, you know, there’s some more racy elements in there that a 12-year-old maybe shouldn’t read, but the page that I always poured over was. The editor-in-chief would do a what’s in my bag section and they would showcase the products that they were loving and enamored by. And I’m from Indiana and I think part of Midwestern charm, but I’m also very gullible.

And at the time I was like, Oh my God, these are their favorite product. They love these things. And it took, I think it was my [00:25:00] mom who said, that’s, that is not, that is advertising on a page. Those products are placed strategically. There is a whole, look at all the ads in that magazine. And it kind of unlocked something for me that just kind of sparked this curiosity of how brands get either in front of an editor-in-chief and place themselves in an editorial magazine.

Also, how do brands get in front of influencers and get these amazing endorsements or teardowns? I was just like, I need to know behind the curtain what’s happening. And so when I moved to New York back in 2013, I was going to date myself a little bit. I’ve been in the city for over a decade. I was so excited.

My first job coming to New York was I was on our media relations and influencer marketing team. And at that time. Media was still an important part, like the Refinery29s of the world, the Allure, and I got to play in that space, but quickly saw bloggers and YouTubers [00:26:00] become part of this, like, budget that brands wanted to figure out, how do we create these videos?

And I got to be in the front lines of doing that. And to your point, my department, I was in it quickly dropped the media side. It went to a couple of other team members and my full-time job then became influencer marketing. And that was just like, so exciting for me to be able to take this initial interest from when I was 12, seeing the brands on a page to now I get to work with them was just.

I couldn’t ask for more, and it’s still even to this day, like, I love what we do, and I get so excited when I can create those collaborations. 

[00:26:39] Katie Stoller: I just feel, not to get all mushy and gushy, but I just feel so, like, grateful and lucky to be in a point in history where we were part of an industry that, like, didn’t exist, and just, like, one day existed, you know?

Like, do you ever think about that? Like, I just feel like, you know, I always say, like, accountants, or, like, lawyers, like, you know, like, None of them can be like, I was there from the [00:27:00] beginning, like nobody alive was there from the beginning, but like we truly were at the like precipice, if that’s the correct word, of an industry that’s now worth 250 billion, I think, according to Goldman Sachs in 2025, like, I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars now are being poured into this industry and to be kind of either, you know, for me, I was in a PR agency.

I was at Ogilvy at the time when this was all kind of happening. And my little story that I’ve told a couple of times, but my story of how I started was I was pitching traditional media similar to, you know, the refinery 29th of the world and one of my colleagues who still is a media relations guru, but he got like a cover spread in the paper edition of New York Times and like the home section and I remember the client was like still wanting more and I was like, there is nothing better than that.

Like once you get that, like, What else are we going to do, you know, and I remember being like sitting at my desk and being like, what if we use bloggers? Like, why, you know, just because it’s not as big, it’s a [00:28:00] different kind of way to showcase the product. So I reached out to a sorority sister who had a blog in Chicago.

She ended up doing a photo shoot in her garage. It was like a garage organization product. And she did a photo shoot with like, I think she sent us like 50 to 100 high-resolution images. Beautifully styled. Like, this would have cost thousands of dollars if it were done in a studio. And how many, like She did your photo shoot for you.

She did it with her dad. Her dad came and helped her set up lighting and helped her set up the gear and it probably, you know, took them two hours to do it and they sent us the images and I remember sending them to my client. We had no contract, no rights, no, nothing was legally done. It was all just like a handshake deal and of course, she said, feel free to use the images.

And my client was like, what just happened? Like, what is this? And I was like, this is like the future. This is working with real people. Uh, To capture real content in her real garage with her real products, and from that moment on, I was like, this is what I [00:29:00] want to do. Like, this is so much more fun than getting hung up by reporters all day.

[00:29:04] Lauren Ludlow: Yeah, and also like, look how fast she was able to turn that around. Versus some of those publications, like the lead time is five, or six months. Yeah. Like a brand that can’t wait that long. 

[00:29:13] Katie Stoller: Right. And like back then, I mean this is probably like 2012-ish times. Like I like the New York Times. Like, I don’t know what the readership was.

It was decent, but it wasn’t like a, you know, it wasn’t like how, like the front page of, you know, I don’t know, like the, all the like news. I guess now it’s all social media. I’m going to date myself by saying Yahoo. Cause Yahoo used to be like the big, the one with the most impressions, but 

[00:29:35] Lauren Ludlow: they still have surprisingly good numbers.

I just don’t quite believe it, but okay. I know it’s like 

[00:29:40] Katie Stoller: all like inflated at this point, but yeah, but I mean, back then it was like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know what the readership was, but her UMVs unique monthly visitors were on her blog were probably like 25, 000 like it wasn’t massive, but it was 25, 000, engaged people.

And this was before social media was. Huge where you were [00:30:00] sharing your blog post on social like, yeah, it was kind of like you had a blog and you had an Instagram, but the 25, 000 visitors were like proactively typing in her name and going to her page. So they were very engaged. Um, and I just felt that the impact of that, while the numbers might have been less impressions-wise, the impact was so much more than random people picking up the newspaper, you know?

[00:30:23] Lauren Ludlow: Yeah. 

[00:30:24] Katie Stoller: Was that at 

[00:30:24] Lauren Ludlow: a 

[00:30:25] Katie Stoller: agency job that you were at? It was at Ogilvy and it was one of our big. Like portfolio sub-clients and, but yeah, but I mean, that’s kind of my origin, my villain origin story, but I love how it kind of relates to the whole, like magazine thing. Cause I feel like, you know, back in the day it was sort of, I don’t know, like a woman’s frivolous fashion and beauty.

And I feel like that’s what evolved into now with this like massive industry is. 

[00:30:52] Lauren Ludlow: Yeah, it took it from, yeah, I think also to your point, this like cutthroat. Girl boss, [00:31:00] like the intensity of an industry, and it like our side of the industry is, is still intense, but I think it’s also fueled by a lot more positivity and.

The impact is just so much more saturated and what you can enable an audience to go to that I just, I feel so grateful that we get to be in this industry. 

[00:31:19] Katie Stoller: Yeah, I, yeah, I mean, that we can have a whole other podcast about the girl boss era. I do feel like that era is over. Thank God. Because I mean, you and I were probably in the middle of it, you know, and it was when I was graduating college.

[00:31:31] Lauren Ludlow: The girl boss era twisted my mind into thinking hustle all the time until I. Until I broke that chain and went off on my own. It was like, no, I’m supposed to do this. This is what Glamour 

[00:31:44] Katie Stoller: told me to do, right? It’s like it’s supposed to be crazy and chaotic, but it’s not supposed to hurt You know what?

I mean? Like once things are getting like painful. That’s what you know it’s like probably but we were told like If you’re, if you’ve slept two, two hours and six days, that’s normal. If you get called [00:32:00] into your office at 3 am to fix a deck because your boss messed something up, that’s normal. These things are not normal, actually.

Like, I don’t know how, why we’d normalize them, but I’m glad that like the cultural shift has happened because it was wild for a while. That 3 am story was actually something that happened to me. I bet I bet it was true. Yes. Well, on the topic of like, What we went through. Um, and now kind of where we’re at.

I thought we could close with some advice and our best kind of tips that I know we sort of talked about this a couple of days ago. But do you want to start with like your number one kind of pep talk to the younger generation of going off on your own and just, you know, kind of like killing it in this industry?

And what would you say to them? Oh, 

[00:32:45] Lauren Ludlow: my gosh, it’s so hard to distill it to one thing. I will say so. Like, I’ve had my own company now for three Three years working in the industry for 10 years before that. And I think if [00:33:00] there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that you don’t have to have it all figured out, even with that many years of experience, it doesn’t translate into a perfect blueprint of, I know exactly what six months.

One year, five years and 10 years look down the line for me. I don’t, I think that’s a little bit of the leap that I took in wanting to start my own entity, but just know that if you have a conviction or a passion or like you have a personal mission I think that can really carry you through a lot of the.

Turmoils and ebbs and flows of working in this industry and that you don’t have to get gridlocked into like, what is the plan? I talked to a lot of young professionals, especially the ones that come to the beauty social are often looking for advice and you know, there’s frequent requests to, you know, do I need a business plan?

Do I need, how do I figure all this out? What brands am I going to work with? And I truly think part of this is to have a point of view. Be [00:34:00] friendly, like be nice to work with, and like the rest, you will figure it out of course, you know, the financial side is kind of a different piece and making sure you’re prepared and ready for the highs and lows that can come with working for yourself, but just like.

I guess my tip at the end of all this is you don’t have to have it all figured out. And I should tell myself that every day because I constantly want to go figure it all out and like, it’s just not realistic. 

[00:34:23] Katie Stoller: White people like you and me, I mean, you’ve been doing this for three years on your own. I’m just coming up on my second year in February and I still like to have moments where I’m like, Oh my God, what am I going to do next week?

Like, I mean, I still freak out, like have like full-on meltdowns. Like I, what did I do? Why did I do this? Like I should have a full-time job and 401k like I still have those freak outs and I will say, I’ve been so lucky and I’m so grateful, but every time I have one of those freak outs, it’s like the universe opens up and people are like, Hey, I have a person to introduce you to, or Hey, my friend’s looking for influencer help or Hey, it’s like, it’s [00:35:00] crazy.

It’s definitely like a universe thing. It’s like when I get freaked out enough, the universe is like, okay, we got you, we got you. 

[00:35:06] Lauren Ludlow: I still feel like, an old mentor once told me, she was like, you have to follow the breadcrumbs, which I appreciated, so like When you get introduced to somebody, make sure you stay in touch with them.

Like, those future leads can also be your next job, so keep in touch with people. 

[00:35:21] Katie Stoller: Totally. I honestly, like, for my piece of advice, I was gonna talk a little bit about confidence, which I still will, but I think I’m switching my thing to say about networking. I think you and I are naturally good at it, and I think some people are just really good at it.

A lot of, you know, as long as you’re somewhat outgoing and enjoy meeting new people, you can kind of harness the power of networking. But it does take a little bit of practice and I think some of the networking, I always say this, is just being a scrappy person. And what I mean by that is like, where one person might meet someone and be like, they were nice and kind of move about their day.

I’m going to be like, okay, I’m going to look up that person, see where they’ve worked, [00:36:00] see who they know, offer them to come to coffee with me. Like, I’m, like, I don’t want to say like strategic in my relationships, but I think about, like, what are the symbiotic ways that we can help each other with almost everyone I meet?

Like, literally. Like, the mailman might be able to help me, or I might be able to help him. Like, it doesn’t matter. And just being, just having that, like, level of openness allows you to kind of, like, spread those bridecombs. Breadcrumbs that you were talking about and follow the breadcrumbs. I think a mistake people make is just asking a bunch of people for coffee and then sort of going about their merry way, which I feel like we see a lot with like the younger generation is like, they pick my brain for five minutes, and they have great ideas, they sound awesome, and then I just like poof, never hear from them again.

And I’m like, yeah, and I’m just like, I have a, I mean, from a tactical perspective, if anyone is like looking for advice on how to get going with it is I have a spreadsheet. Of like, pretty much everyone I talk to, you know, and I go, I kind of like don’t do it and then I’ll go back and look through my calendar, look through my email, but the idea is to keep [00:37:00] as many people that you have relationships with on there, where they work, what their title is, different like, like anecdotes about them so that when I am having sort of like these dry moments, I can go back and be like, Oh my God, I forgot that person worked with blah, blah, blah, and maybe They know so and so, but it’s so important to build that network.

And it sort of happens naturally, especially in places like WIM, on our Slack channel. But some of it does take a little bit of like, being crafty and, you know, foresight. 

[00:37:30] Lauren Ludlow: Yeah, I love that you have a spreadsheet. Is that just like a Google Sheet that you keep up to date or is it a CRM tool? 

[00:37:35] Katie Stoller: It’s just a Google Sheet.

I probably should, like, migrate into something fancier, but it’s just a Google Sheet. And I started it in February when I went on my own, in 2023. And it started with, like, people that, like, are my friends, that, like, I would never forget them. And Jessie’s on it, like, from WIM. Like, obviously, Jessie and I have been friends for a long time.

She, I talk to her almost every day. Like, I don’t need to remind myself. But, like, that’s How I started it. And like my old boss, Kate, who [00:38:00] was my boss at Ketchum, who I’m very good friends with, she’s given me a ton of work. Like she’s on it. So it’s, it starts with the familiar, but then as it goes down, it’s people that like, maybe I talked to for five minutes that like, I would never just remember that I had a conversation with them and where they came from and what their past jobs were.

So I don’t know. It’s helped me. And it, and for any moment that I do feel like this like a dry patch of, you know, maybe less work coming on, I can just always refer back to it. And it’s also a great place to track if you’re sending holiday cards or thank you notes, like I’m going to do this year.

I’m going to do a thank you note for anyone that I worked with this year. Take it out of your brain, I think and put it on paper. 

[00:38:36] Lauren Ludlow: Yes. Yes. I think that’s also that, to your point, that’s where, um, I think you can harbor a lot of like stress or anxiety of like the what ifs and what am I going to do?

But it’s like, wait, remember your contact sheet is like 100 people deep. These are all decision-makers that you have strong relationships with. All you have to do is knock on the door and say I’m curious about something or I’m looking for something or [00:39:00] Hey, I saw this and I want to offer something valuable to you.

Like those relationships can turn into something beautiful. Totally. 

[00:39:07] Katie Stoller: Alright, well, I’ll wrap it up with my other little piece of advice. Then we can do our little closing statements. But the last thing, just a quick note on confidence. We all know this, but I always tell the story that when I was at Ogilvy, I was at Ogilvy for five and a half years.

And the first year I was on the corporate team, which was not a personality fit. I’ve worked in consumer exclusively ever since that first year was over. And I’m much more of a consumer-facing type of person, but. I think because it was difficult for me to be on the corporate team, it just wasn’t sort of my style.

And you know, social media was just starting. We were all very confused by it. I had a lot of confidence issues and just going into such a big, profound agency, like, you know, Mad Men was like made after Ogilvy. Like it was a lot to go into as someone in my early twenties, I had a lot of issues with confidence and I do feel like that.

[00:40:00] impacted some of my promotion, some of my trajectory for my job. And I just did another podcast that might not have come, come out yet on, on the whim podcast about kind of like women empowerment and like the trajectory women are going through. Cause right now women are like killing it. Like when you look at the stats, women are out earning men 30, like.

And I think there was so much of, like, glass ceiling speak back then in the girl boss era that I just would implore young people listening to that, like, do not let your confidence issues get in the way. Like, I tell one quick tidbit from my time at Ogilvy, but I had a boss. I’m not going to say too much.

I feel like I already gave too much away, but I had a boss back then a long time ago. We’re talking over 10 years ago. That was not the nicest to me and I didn’t love working for her I thought she was so smart and just like knew everything because that’s the way she like came. That’s the way she sort of put her persona out there.

She ended up leaving about a year after I got there and became a real [00:41:00] estate agent. So like sometimes the people who act like they know everything actually quite in fact do not. She didn’t even like the industry enough to stay and she was like in her early 20s. I mean she made a complete career pivot right away.

So. Yeah. To me, that just proved, and like, look at me here. I am now running my own very successful influencer freelance business and she’s selling houses, which is nothing wrong with that. But like, I looked up to her as like the no, no, all of the PR world. So I just like, and it’s your career, right? I just like to like, tell that story of like, don’t let your insecurities or your imposter syndrome kind of get in the way of like your path.

And to your point, having that conversation. Yeah. Really specific, you know, value-based plan and sticking to that and being really like, you know, tied to that is so important. 

[00:41:49] Lauren Ludlow: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so interesting with confidence. I would say maybe especially for millennials, because I think everyone kind of had that boss that rattled us a little bit of like, oh, my God, I’m not good enough.

They’re [00:42:00] redlining everything. Like, I wasn’t invited to that meeting. And like? It’s like being almost a badge of honor now, I think for a lot of us, like, yeah, I got through it and like, I recovered, but man, it hurts. And now you see a lot of them, the younger generations coming out and they do have that confidence, but I think, you know, yes, it’s a fake it till you make it, but it’s also being.

Genuinely nice, respectful, like, when you share an opinion, or you are confident in a meeting, it’s not coming with like. Ego, it’s just say, come with that point of view, because people want to hear what you have to say, like. We are all very interested in our own experiences. And if you can share that, like, I think you’ll feed off of the, uh, the positive responses you’ll get.

Yes. I love that so much. 

Yeah. 

[00:42:46] Lauren Ludlow: I know too, Katie, I feel like when you started freelance, I will say like, everyone should follow Katie on LinkedIn. Cause she does cool posts and you shared transparency of like what’s happening behind the scenes. But I remember, I think you did like it. Your one year [00:43:00] reflection on freelance and I read it and I was like, God, this is so spot on.

Like, I felt all those things too. Now, I’ve never written about that. Now, I’m just trying to like, figure out my own footprint on LinkedIn. But I saw it, it’s like, okay, you don’t have to be like, 10 years in the making on freelance to have a point of view on it. Like, These were so rich in the insights and it even gave me the confidence to go out and share a point of view.

[00:43:25] Katie Stoller: Oh, I love that. Yeah, I feel like I always, you know, I have a master’s in public relations and advertising and I remember, you know, after I got that, I was like, should I have just gotten an MBA? Like, should I have just taken the like correct path? But honestly, doing freelance for a year was an MBA. Like, I mean, the amount that I learned in that year.

And I mean, I’m still new. I’m still like a baby in the freelance world, so I’m sure there’s plenty more to learn and you’ve helped me so much. You’ve taught me so much. So many other, you know, amazing people have helped me, but it’s incredible and like just trusting yourself to, I mean, not to give another piece of advice, but just sort of [00:44:00] having that like blind faith that like you can figure it out comes with the confidence is so important because you.

We’re all very resilient, you know, like, especially if you’ve made it this far in this industry, you’re somewhat of a resilient person and just having that trust in yourself is so important. I 

[00:44:16] Lauren Ludlow: love that. That’s such a good advice. 

[00:44:17] Katie Stoller: Yeah, I love it. Okay, well, thanks everyone for listening. This was a fun little episode.

We started with a little game and kind of got deep there at the end, but I love it. Check out Lauren and me both on LinkedIn. And WIM or want to learn more about our community, it’s such an amazing community full of Supportive and amazing professional women. Feel free to reach out to either one of us.

We’re happy to explain more about it. Thank you so much for listening. 

[00:44:44] Lauren Ludlow: Amazing. Thanks for having us. 

[00:44:47] Jessy: If you enjoyed this episode, we gotta have you back. Check out our website for more ways to get involved, including all the information you need about joining our collective. You can check out all the information at iamwiim.com. Leave us a review, or a rating, but the most important thing that we ask you to do is to share this podcast. Thanks for listening. Tune in next week.