Reality TV Influencers

Jessy: Hey guys, what is going on? Welcome back to the Women in Influencer Marketing Podcast. My name is Jessy Grossman. I am super excited to be back with you guys yet again this week. I just finished interviewing Courtney Bagby Lupillen, who was a fantastic gas and I’m going to introduce her in just about a minute.

You guys, we have, I’m in like the throes of the finishing touches of putting all these events together. I know that I’m talking about this week over week. But they’re just going to be so good and it’s like the coolest thing to have people in person and like interacting and like really truly connecting.

Nothing beats it. Certainly, no virtual event beats it. The big conferences that I go to don’t beat it either because it’s hard to like really connect with people at those big industry conferences. And I recommend going I love all those conferences. I’ll continue to go to, but we’re like very specifically creating these in-person events that are like these like mid-sized events where you still feel like you can very much connect with people and get to know people network, but like they’re fun and we have food and drinks and giveaways and gift bags and like the whole thing.

Anyways, I’m like loving it. I am a newly found event designer, like an event programming person, whatever. I’m trying to call myself today. It’s fun. It’s been fun. It’s stressful, it’s really stressful running events and getting everything in order.

But like I highly encourage you guys to check out our website. Iamwiim.com/events. That’s I A M W I I M.com/events because our New York event is coming up and it’s going to be fabulous. It’s on July 27th and our Chicago event is going to be fabulous and it’s on September 14th.

So please come and if you listen to the podcast and you attend these events, please come up to me and introduce yourself and specifically say that you listen to the podcast because it’s like very challenging for me, not having this be more like a two-way conversation.

Thank God that I have an interview-style podcast where for the most part I get to interview other people and have those conversations. So like on social media, in the comments, I’d be able to hear from you guys. If you like follow the show or follow our community or all of me or whatever it is. But like with a podcast, it’s very challenging. I get lonely. I don’t get to hear from you guys enough.

So I try to encourage you guys to like comment on the YouTube video so that, I can hear from you guys more often, but, and please still do that. I hope you guys tune in on YouTube. We do a lot of extra work to make this like a video podcast, but come to these events and say hello in person. Cause again, nothing beats an in-person connection.

Specifically, say that you listen to the podcast. Thank you in person and get to know you. So you’re not just like a stupid number on a podcast. Okay, guys, I’m very excited to introduce you to our guest this week. She is such a firecracker and I adore her. 

We first met in person a little over a year ago in LA, which is where she’s based, Courtney Bagby Lupilin is the CEO and founder of Little Red Management.

She’s a talent manager for reality stars from shows on ABC, CBS, MTV, and Netflix, including the Bachelor franchise, Big Brother, Love Is Blind, and The Circle. She is a true fan girl turned entrepreneur and she merged her passion with reality TV and her acumen for advertising communications and digital media. 

She began her career at Oracle in SF. But a yearning for the celebrity side of influencer marketing is what led her to LA, where she volunteered her time and built relationships within the reality TV world before taking the big leap to launch her own company, Little Red Management in 2019. And by the way, at the time, she was only 25.

So good for freaking her. We talk about so much in today’s episode. It’s a bit of a long one because we had a lot to talk about, so I’m so excited for you to listen, and let’s jump right into it. Here’s Courtney.

Jessy: So right before we just started recording we were saying how the last time we saw each other was in LA at VidCon. But a year plus ago, this really cool restaurant, do you remember what it was called in LA? 

Courtney: Oh my gosh. I feel like it was called Puestos. 

Jessy: Dang, you have a good memory. It was really nice. Actually, technically speaking, we were in Anaheim. But that was the last time that we saw each other. And I’m just happy for you to be on the pod today so we can like, selfishly, I’m like, oh cool, we get to catch up.

Courtney: I know, of course, because we just were like chatting non-stop for like hours that night. So I was super excited to catch up. On the record, maybe off the record, all the things. But no, I’m super happy to be here and chat more and see what we come up with. 

Jessy: Absolutely. So we heard a little bit about you like on paper in the intro to the show, but I think it would be 

great for us to just level set and tell everyone listening and remind me even just tell me about your path to influencer marketing and how you ended up launching your own company. 

Courtney: I could go on for hours about this. So I’ll give you the short and sweet the short and sweet version. But when I was in college, so this was like 2015, it was one of the first years that I actually feel like reality TV people were starting to get a following on social media. It was like the days where really FabFitFun and Diff Eyewear were the only brands that really did influence our marketing.

And I thought it was the coolest thing. It was really the season. I looked back at it, too, of like, why I was so into this season. It was like Chris Soule’s season, with Caitlin Bristow, and Ashley Iaconetti. Like, all the stars, really, now, right? Becca Tilly. 

Jessy: All of them are like some of my favorite people. I know exactly the time that you’re thinking, and it was like, it was such an epic time in reality TV, and I’m the biggest Bachelor 

Courtney: Same. You can just call me their number one fan. But I just really was like, so intrigued with the fact that they were like, actually getting paid on social media. And meanwhile, I had been studying advertising since freshman year in the sense of I knew I wanted to be in social media in some capacity.

And I didn’t really understand that I really liked the entertainment side of things until I would visit L A. with a couple of my friends and always be the girl waiting outside of bars for the celebrities, seeing who I can see, fangirl a little bit.

We’d hang out at the Grove, which if people don’t know what the Grove is, is a great spot for celebrity sightings. We would literally sit at the movie theater there from 5 p. m. till 12 and we would see at least three to five celebrities like every single time and take photos with them, totally fangirl. 

And I just found my love for the high of meeting celebrities, and fangirling. And so that’s when I like really realized that’s what I wanted to pursue. And I would try to talk to people in the industry. I would want to work for Freeform because they were like part of ABC because they were part of my favorite TV shows. 

Literally got nowhere, and ended up working in tech for three years. And I would just like to slide into the DMS of all my favorite reality stars and see how I can help them. Like one of my clients today, we were like, scrolling back to our first DMS and I was like asking her how much she got paid for DIFF eyewear like that’s like a throwback. It was like me even trying to figure out that way, back in the day.

I ended up working in tech for three years, volunteering for a nonprofit event that they held every year where you can meet reality stars. And I would just try to network that way. And so when I moved down to L. A. I started helping, I guess this was previously, I started helping like a podcast with Ashley Iaconetti and one of her podcasts, and so I started to like their Facebook group, started becoming involved that way, and that actually helped me get my first job at a talent agency, and I worked at a commercial talent agency for a year.

And they didn’t want to work with reality stars, and that’s what I wanted to do. That’s who I knew in the industry, there were a few people from Pretty Little Liars that I liked that we worked with, but I really wanted to manage The Bachelorette or, like The Bachelor.

And that was the world that I wanted to be in. And so when I found out that my boss was like Courtney, we are never going to manage reality stars. And I was like, okay I’m gonna put my two weeks in, she’s you’re gonna go do your own thing, huh?

And I was like, yeah, I am. And she was a huge Bachelor fan too, like me. So I like never understood, so I would like always to pester her can we please do this? And so that was now for… years ago and like I mostly am known as the manager for reality stars now or at least one of them. 

Jessy: How did she know? She was like, oh, you’re going to start your own thing. Like. How did she know that you would do that? 

Courtney: I feel like, this is just me being me, but like I feel like I’m a very persistent person and like I would tell her like who I knew, like I was trying to bring in like bachelor people that I knew, or big brother people that I knew, like to the agency. And it was they were not interested in that?

But I don’t know, I guess that’s a good question, but maybe I’ll take it as a compliment. 

Jessy: I can imagine it’s definitely complimentary, for sure. And so now today you’ve owned your own agency for a few years. Give us the real deal. 

Give us, not just the highlight reel but of course it would be lovely to hear some highlights. What is it actually like owning your own talent management company?

Courtney: Let’s start with you’re working 24/7 and you’re always available to everyone. At least I make myself available to everyone, which is probably something I have an issue with and my boundaries. But I think that really ends up setting me apart, to be honest from a lot of other people because I think they can call me whenever and I will be there for them.

And I think that also comes with my love for reality TV and actually knowing who they are or at least me thinking that I know who they are from watching them. But I think also the hardest part that I always get upset about is just not being able to provide enough income for them and I talk about this a lot because I feel like it’s like my biggest struggle with Having my own company and like I’ve gotten to a point where I just want to work with exclusive talent.

So I feel the need to, like really right provide for them and their families. And it’s a lot more than people think. And I only have so much control over even being able to tell them what to do on social media, because it’s not my job to post, it’s not my job to come up with the content it’s my job to get the brand deals.

And so it’s really hard for me sometimes, because I’m not a babysitter, I can’t sit here and tell you to post organically every single day you should be, like, why do I have to tell someone to post 10 stories? That’s another thing.

And I just can’t believe the amount of times that I’m like, literally we’ll be with a client and I’ve asked five days in a row can you please post organically? And it’s still not happening. And I’m like, it’s I’m literally right next to you.

Jessy: I hear this certainly from other talent managers for sure, but I feel like there’s a possibility that like reality stars could be worse in this area, perhaps in other areas, like certainly more challenging. Do you agree with that? 

And I guess, how do you think that working with reality TV stars maybe is a little bit different from maybe working with a traditional influencer? 

Courtney: I feel like in the last year I’ve noticed that a ton, mostly because I’ve been more open to taking nonreality clients. I didn’t know who they were. When I brought on my YouTube family, I didn’t know who they were. Now I’m a huge fan of them.

Or when I brought on my foodie girl, like I knew nothing about food and the food space that’s by the way, the top space to be in right now, I feel like, which is insane. 

Jessy: We have to talk about that after I’m going to put a pin in that cause I do want to get back to that. That’s interesting. 

Courtney: This is my theory that, when you’re on reality TV, you are handed followers, right? Handed. Let’s say you get a lot of followers from going on reality TV. Maybe not as much as you used to, but you do get followers.

And all of a sudden you go in this panic mode of, Oh my God, what do I do? This is this new job. And like, what do I do with this platform? What is my thing? What do I even like to do? What should I be posting? This whole thing, of figuring out this whole new, different lifestyle and this honest routine to becoming an influencer and content creator.

Most of the content from reality TV stars is not good. I’m just going, to be honest. And you look at a content creator and you can tell the difference and the hustle that they have put into it to grow their following organically over 10 years. 

My clients that have been in the industry are just kind of 10 years of doing their own thing, and so this has been their job. This is how they work. They already know how to wake up and just get to creating content. So I think it’s more of the change in routine, but what do you think? 

Jessy: I’ve worked with both like I did a brand deal with Chris Soules. We’re talking about Chris Soules. I’ve done a deal with Andy Dorfman, like former Bachelorette and stuff and, this was years ago, so I would hope that a lot of the struggles that some of those folks had like many years ago have improved.

Like back then they didn’t necessarily understand the stuff that traditional influencers did. Like they didn’t necessarily know what the product was most important and had to be focused on. 

Courtney: I think that’s now still though Jessy. That’s the thing because they get off the show. They’re newbies, Right, They don’t know.

Jessy: You don’t know what you don’t know. So I guess I would like to think that a lot of those people over time just like the lay of the land. But basically, I can also see how separated those worlds are. Like, so I used to represent actors in commercials, right? 

And we… there’s just a very specific mentality. I think with a lot of those people, they like, they train for sometimes decades, and they take their craft very seriously. And there’s a little bit of a stigma for those who cross over, I think, very much to this day because of how seriously they take their craft. 

And so I feel like there is this desire to retain the, I am a performer first or, I do TV first cause it feels more legit for some reason. And they hesitate to maybe pick up some of the skills that would be necessary to excel in the creator economy space.

However, my two cents is that the ones that are the smartest are crossing over like crazy cause they see how lucrative they can be. They see how it helps the reality stuff. It helps the longevity of their career broadly. There are just so many more opportunities that open up if you can straddle both sides.

So I dunno, I’d be curious, like we put a pin on this and maybe this is a good place to throw it in. You mentioned briefly before, Oh, the food space, that’s like this really good place to be. What are the most successful types of clients and why? 

How would you describe a really successful model of an influencer? 

Courtney: Yeah, I actually love that question because I feel like I tell every single client what they need to do to be successful, or at least in my eyes. And does it happen? Not all the time, but I would say the most successful in my eyes for sure are the true content creators, whether that’s from reality that are also content creators or have become content creators.

And I feel like even my reality star clients would be like, what’s the difference between a content creator and a reality star its quality content truly is the difference. It’s the fact that it’s an art, like what you were saying. And it’s like the people that are making the most money on social media and the most success in that realm are creating high-quality content by any means, especially with the fact of what we can go into the fact that brands need to be paid media behind it. They need to boost the content. They need to use the content elsewhere other than just posting organically on social media. So it needs to be high quality. 

And I have a mixture. I think it’s moms, right? I think it’s foodies. I think that it’s truly just posting consistently in the feed, like five to seven times a week, which no one wants to hear, like when I tell clients that. I actually started having a rule, Jessy, where I wouldn’t even bring on a client unless you were posting a minimum of three times a week I won’t even say that seven is too much, right? Like in feed. And in order to make this a full-time career, like you can’t post three times a week and think that you’re gonna make full-time money. That’s a part-time job if you’re posting three times a week.

So I don’t even really bring on clients anymore unless they’re posting three times a week in the feed. 

Jessy: Do you look for people who are like on multiple platforms? Do they have to also be on YouTube or also have a podcast or are you cool just representing people who like, they’re just really big on Instagram, for example, or one platform or the other? Do you have a preference? 

Courtney: I feel like I personally have a lot of brand connections slash my expertise is more around Instagram. So cause I’ve had this a lot of like big TikTok followings, and not as much Instagram, and I’m just like worried that I won’t be able to make them as much money.

Because I don’t know if it’s because Tik Tok is this weird space in the brand world right now if they’re trying to figure it out or who they’re going to work with or what it is. But I don’t always think that a lot of followers on Tik Tok necessarily need anything right now.

So I get more hesitant, but I do want someone who just posts consistently high-quality content and that I can look at their feed. And know that they have a thing. Because if I’m confused about what your thing is, brands for sure will be confused about what your thing is. 

Jessy: 100%. That clarity is really important. And then when making brand deals, what advice would you give to creators in terms of the criteria that they should be looking for?

Courtney: Are you referring to like when a brand reaches out to them, knowing if it’s like legit or not? 

Jessy: Yeah. 

So great question. So like to know if it’s legit and to know if it’s the type of partner that makes sense for them because you can interpret that in a million different ways. But I’m just curious, like the criteria that creators should look for just to know that it’s a good partnership for them. 

Courtney: I feel like a lot of my clients look to me to know that. So there’s like a few things. So I always look up their Instagram and website just to check it out, and see if they look legit. Or see how many followers have or like who they’ve worked with. I always ask for examples of people that they’ve worked with and like past content examples.

 Payment upfront, side note, but I like seeing if they got money. And then I also like always Google the agency or brand, if it’s an agency that comes to me just so that I can see what other brands they work with and also understand it. 

Like sometimes an agency will reach out to me and I’ve worked with the brand directly. So I’m always going to confirm with the brand to make sure that’s the agency that they want me to work with, like for my client too. But I also think that a lot of it is like, what my client actually uses the product.

I will get upset if a client, especially if they’re super busy like a client says yes to a campaign and like they would never use the product or it doesn’t work or they didn’t test it.

And I feel like saying that thing that I even like always support is let’s send you the product. Try it. Because every legit brand should want the influencer, to like actually like the brand that they’re promoting and be okay with them testing it before they say yes to a campaign. 

Jessy: Okay, so my slightly controversial thought. You’ll hear a lot of people say what you just said, which makes perfect logical sense, which is like you have to love the product, you have to be into the product, right? Actually don’t think that necessarily is true. because I think that influencers at their core, they’re storytellers, right?

And so if they have, let’s say a sister-in-law that would love the product or, talking about moms, if their daughter would love the product or they’re gifting their teacher, the products, like there are so many different stories that can be told that make it authentic for the product to be used, but it doesn’t.

always have to be them loving it. And in fact, I wonder if we’re getting to a critical point in which influencers can’t fucking love everything. And it’s Oh my God, it’s my favorite. That’s my favorite. I love it. What are your thoughts on that? Have you seen it successfully done where an influencer would be like, I love this product for so and or am I just living on a cloud and hoping that could happen? 

Courtney: So I think that historically influencer marketing. And celebrity mark, right? Like this world is all about them themselves endorsing the product, right? That’s where celebrity endorsements came from.

So it’s all about them loving the product, but I agree now in the influencer space how do you love every single product? And I think actually brands, or at least I’ve seen some creative ways that I’m actually really loving Jessy about this way of doing things where I will have a client promote and they do a morning routine and they’re going to include their other brands that they use in their morning routine, in addition to that toothbrush. 

And I feel like that’s the way to do it. I don’t just use one makeup brand. I don’t just use one skincare brand for my whole skincare routine, and that’s just the reality of it. But it’s weird because I had an instance recently where I like got an offer for a nutrition brand, and my client did not want to use it herself, but she still wanted to promote it because it was good money. And she was like, I can promote it for other people.

And the brand was like, no, like we need her to use it. And that’s where I agree with you where it’s I know that it’s a celebrity endorsement. I get that you want her to say she’s using herself, but it can get the same sort of engagement as her saying, hey guys, look at this product that I found. And I’m so intrigued by it and I’m considering taking it, right? Like people don’t need to know like considering taking it and like here it is a thing. 

Jessy: To me, that’s this whole conversation sort of equates to do people think outside the box enough. And, if I could say one of my biggest gripes about our industry is people are just a little too narrow-minded. I don’t think people are thinking outside the box enough, and I think this is just one of probably many examples where people are just very stuck in their ways, and they’re like of course the influencer would have to use it.

But it’s like, do they? Like maybe there is an instance or instances, of course, where it wouldn’t make sense otherwise, 

Courtney: I have a confession. I feel like I need to confess something now as we’re like having this conversation. I actually hate when my clients are annoyed about trying products. 

Jessy: I thought you were going to say what you hate when they’re annoying. I was like me too. 

Courtney: Try it before, they’re like no. I would never take that. And sometimes I’m like, okay, let’s just figure it out. Like you’re, either going to do the campaign or not. I got to move on. I got other things to do yes or no. I’ll give someone else the campaign. 

On the one hand, I get it and I have to tell my team, right? No, it’s okay that so and so wants to try the product before. But on the other hand, I’m like, but I get it. Can we just hurry up and say yes or no, it sounds like diva-ish. Let me try it first. Oh, can I take my sweet time to decide if I want to do this no, you have two hours to decide if you want to do a campaign. You’re in or out. Which one is it? 

Jessy: No, that’s such a legit thing. I look, I get like real talk. I think there are a lot of managers that I know are listening to this conversation. And I know that they relate to that. Cause like you just get in a mode and most times people just say yes or no. 

At the end of the day, managers are trying to make people money. Like we’re not like getting people PR like we’re trying to like to make them wealthy. We’re trying to make them money. And so like it’s all about deal flow and churning deals out, and so to be able to do that, you’ve got to move somewhat quickly. Plus there are definitely instances where there’s pressure to accept something right away or it’s going to go to somebody else, I hate that pressure. I hate that like sort of intimidation. 

Courtney: I don’t you think that’s so important though for clients to understand? I’ve been having to tell clients that because if you don’t want the campaign, someone else will do it. So if you don’t want this there’s no more money here. There’s no negotiation of one less story or no link in the bio. Like it’s either you want to do it or you don’t. And we’re moving on. 

Jessy: This is extra interesting to talk about with you because you represent reality stars. So these aren’t just your like run of the mill influencers, these are people with a little bit more cachet and recognition to their name. So in your world, are you still finding that there’s the pressure to just accept right away?

 If one of your clients says can they send me the product so I can really see if I like it, which makes perfect logical sense? I’ve certainly experienced it more often when I’ve worked with traditional celebrity talent, but do you find that on the other side, 

the brand is more willing to cater to some extra needs because they have more recognition? You’re nodding your head. Yes. Okay. Do you find that a hundred percent of the time? 50 percent of the time? 

Courtney: The people that the brand wants and they come to me to book that person. Like they’re going to do whatever they can to like, make it work with that talent. And if they have to negotiate no link in bio, like they’ll do it. My problem with that, Jessy is then my client then thinks that they can always do that.

And always negotiate all these little things away where it is, when in reality, as some agencies, I would say most agencies these days already have the creative and the deliverables down to a tee, and there are no negotiations that you can do with some of those deliverables. So it’s really hard to find that fine line being able to be like, okay, yeah, we can negotiate that. Or like trying to come up with creative ways to work together. 

And honestly, I feel like that just comes down to reading the room and the talent too. And like me understanding what the talent’s willing to do, even before I’m like bringing the offer. You know like being more comfortable but Jessy can I just bring this up real quick because this has been a huge problem in my company right now it reminds me of when brands and I give content due dates and brief dates and go live dates because it’s probably the biggest issue to get clients to talent to send me content on time and I know we talk about this all the time.

Like in Wiim and it’s a thing but it’s annoying too on the brand side because some brands are flexible others aren’t. And I want your opinion on this, how do we tell it that, of like, how do they know that like, when I’m saying I need it by 9 a. m Pacific time I need it till 9 a. m Pacific time, if they don’t send it, then it’s still fine. Their sequence still can send it at 5 p. m. And it’s not the end of the world. 

Jessy: Yeah, we, it’s funny, actually our last month’s manager meetup, we had all these topics that we wanted to discuss and this exact topic monopolized the entire conversation, which is so interesting.

Then there were some people who have like just been managers for many years. And they’re like, I can’t believe we’re having this we’re wasting our time having this conversation. And I was like of course, because ideally, it just wouldn’t even be a thing. But it’s still a thing. And it’s something that people struggle with. 

I think the slight time that I’ll devote to explaining why I think this is a thing is I just think generally speaking like if you think about the human brain, there is a left brain and a light and right brain people and most creators are creatively minded which does not equate to deadlines or, just like crossing T’s and dotting I’s, right?

So I think that’s like a little bit of the why. Some people are coming up with some really interesting solutions in terms of how to get your creators to deliver content on time, and how to just manage expectations broadly, which I think is probably the most important conversation, right?

Sure, maybe we’re talking about this minute thing, which is like, how do you get your content creator to deliver their content on time? But I think more broadly, which is more applicable to so many other things as well. It’s just like, how do you manage everybody’s expectations? And as a manager and you have a team you’re like the ring leader of the circus, you’re in the epicenter of a million different things happening around you, especially if you have creators who are on the same campaign.

Cause then it’s oh, like I had one person deliver on time and the other person’s late. Like how do I manage that? Like and here’s a follow-up question that I’m curious about that. This came up in that conversation too. I think a lot of managers’ natural inclination is to throw themselves under the bus because they want to save face for their clients and have their clients not look like, they forgot the deadline or they’re just, not professional.

How do you guys handle that? Will you always throw yourself under the bus? Is it to make your client look good, or is your reputation important to save face for as well? 

Courtney: I don’t know if this is me just being, like, overly transparent. But, I’ll always tell them like, hey, I’m so sorry we need till the end of the day. She’s working on it. We’re gonna get it content to you. We have a videographer tomorrow. We’re trying to get the edits back.

I’m always very transparent with what is going on, like whether they’re on vacation and they like all of a sudden are there. I guess I don’t want to say throw my clients under the bus, but I will tell them what’s going on. But I will say it’s hard to, cause I also try to be like super on it.

If a client forgets the content is due and I hate saying this cause I think it’s the talent’s job to remember when we send a brief with the due date and stuff, but they’re not going to. And I did get upset with an employee yesterday when content was due yesterday for a brand and he went on vacation, didn’t have the product.

Prime day tomorrow, he has to post and he doesn’t have the content. And I was like, look, like you should have been texting him on Friday saying, hey, reminder, you have content due Monday.

And that’s how I’ve trained my team too, is if I have something due over the weekend on Monday, just send a quick text reminder, and go through all of the campaigns that you have, we call them like point people at Little Red Management. 

So we have our point people, whatever. And so I’m like go through those people before the weekend and see what kind of content you’re gonna need from them and just shoot them a text. Then you did everything that you can.

So it was frustrating. And you’d probably love this, but luckily his wife is an influencer and was at home with the product and was able to do the whole video, just the product, and he was able to do voiceover, and what a nice wife. 

Jessy: That is that’s like a power couple right there. 

That’s like modern-day power couple goals right there. I’ll ask you the question before I assert my opinion. What do you think is the best quality of a professional influencer If you could pick one, like to really become successful, what one quality do you think they would have? 

Courtney: Consistently produces high-quality content. And posting, I should say, and posting. I was going to say being on time too, but… 

Jessy: That’s some of the hardest stuff, like the high-quality piece. Cause it just like after a while how do you continuously come up with great ideas and what to post? 

Courtney: I don’t know if you feel like this and if we talk about this a lot, but personally, like I’m embarrassed if I submit bad content, like for my client ’cause I think it does have consequences on me and you’re representing little red management too. And I’m not afraid to tell talent when their content is bad.

I’m like, no, you need to go to get a videographer next time. And I’ll also have conversations with them. No, I think this one can be more organic. This reel could be more organic on my phone versus No, this is McDonald’s. I want you to go get a videographer for it. So like having those conversations and being open about that.

But also it’s the on-time piece is like my favorite thing in the world. And like maybe even organization. Should we say that instead? Cause that’s what you said. It was like earlier, you’re like they’re creative. So maybe they just need some organization of some due dates. 

Jessy: Totally. There’s like a whole toolkit. 

So it’s hard to say just one thing. I’m curious too, for content creators or their managers, what advice would you give them for getting the attention of their dream clients or dream brands to work with?

Courtney: Yeah, so I always say persistence. So I think on the talent side, persistently, like posting organically for brands and like being open that’s like your favorite brand, because I think that honesty is like what gets brands attention. And like the number of times it all literally said there, send screenshots of my clients, posting the same brands to that brand.

Eventually does pay off. And I do get some sort of campaign. It might take one month. It might take a year, like just persistence. I also think from the manager’s perspective of working with dream brands, it’s persistently reaching out and like following up and finding the right contact and asking whoever you’re emailing for the right contact and we all know that most brands these days that you see on social media have an agency or someone internal that is handling stuff.

So just being able to be persistent. And I tell my team that so much, I’m like, find that brand. We know that they’re doing stuff. They did a bunch of stuff last year. That girl must’ve left, but don’t give up. Like you have to keep finding whoever the new person is, get on a call with them. It’s all about persistence and that side of things.

Jessy: It’s funny because my answer to the question before, I don’t know if I would apply it to creators, honestly, but I think I would say that the number one quality of a professional to be successful is actually resiliency, which is like a little there’s like shades of that in what you were just describing you’re like, if you can’t find the contact, don’t give up, keep looking for it.

You’re going to find it like when things, go wrong in any capacity in your business, like the ability to get back up again and what you do in the face of adversity like that’s key. And I can definitely see that as a business owner, like as an agency owner, that’s why I’m asking before, I’m like, sure, give us some of the highlights, but owning your own business is hard and not every day is sunshine and rainbows and butterflies. And so… 

Courtney: Most Days. 

Jessy: Yeah, and so I think that just being able to have that resiliency where you can build a callus where you almost become accustomed to when things go wrong because things just inevitably do go wrong in business it’s very rare that I will say that was a failure.

Like failures, quote-unquote, like they just happen so often that they can’t be failures. They’re all learning experiences. It’s just things inevitably go awry and it’s what you do with them that matters. 

I also would love to pick your brain a little bit on micro-influencers. Do you also represent micro-influencers out of curiosity? 

Courtney: I have a couple. I will only really work with micro-influencers if they’re consistent and do have a thing and they have high-quality content because I think that’s the only way that they can make money. Truly. And a lot of the times like I have to already see that before I bring them on, and like I have to hear that they’re already making good money on their own and like brands coming to them versus them like coming to me to make money for them.

Jessy: Oh yeah, 100, 000% 

Courtney: And I think that with most influencers, to be honest, like if they’re not already making money on their own that’s gonna be a little tough. Like I can make them more money of course, but they should have stuff incoming and like Jessy, you would believe it or not, but like a lot of reality stars don’t have a lot of income.

I don’t know if it’s because it’s convoluted or, brands are getting more and more worried to work with them, or there’s just so many, yeah, there’s so many of them. There are so many influencers in general, but like I can’t even think of specific people right now, but I think in general, get on their high horse a little bit after the shows and think that all these brands are going to be coming to them and it’s not how it works like it’s very much like the manager has to fight for you has to put your name out there and like then we’ll be able to get stuff for you. 

Jessy: Are there certain brands that you think more regularly work with reality TV people than others? 

Courtney: My problem Jessy with that question is I don’t know other people outside of reality TV. So I’m sure the farmer’s dog of the world, or care of the world works with other people outside of reality TV. You know what I mean? But that’s just who I see or Liquid I.V.

Or, all those like brands, I like to call them. It sounds bad. And I love the brands that I work with, so I don’t want you to get mad at me. But quick money brand deals. Where they come off the show and you know the brands that you can reach out to for these reality TV stars to get the money.

Now the problem that I have with that, Jessy because I have some people that I don’t get right after the show, right? So I lose out and they might work with someone else or whatever and they get deals right already with those And then all of a sudden they come to me a few months later because it’s calmed down, right?

They got all those deals. They didn’t do well for them. Probably who knows overpriced them whatever. Then they come to me and I’m like, damn give me a little minute because like I have to go build those relationships for you now. 

Jessy: Can we also, so you like touch on overpricing, which I think is very much an issue? Whether you’re in that celebrity or crossover market or you’re just an influencer in general. Can you talk to me a little bit about I don’t know, your philosophy on pricing and how you come to the prices that you do, if you could even share? You don’t have to get specific about who it’s for, of course, but a range of pricing that you tend to expect. I’d just love to pick your brain on pricing. 

Courtney: That’s probably one of the hardest things I think in influencer marketing because I don’t want to show my cards and the brands want to show their cards of how much they’re just like willing to pay. And of course, their analytics and there are things that people can use to formulate pricing.

And I look at that as like a mainstream, but I think it’s hard because it’s like, what would I do versus what the talent’s willing to take right after the show. And like how much they trust me versus them listening to their peers about how much they should be making.

So personally, I feel like I want them at a price where they’re going to get rebooked. And it’s going to be fair if it’s a brand that they actually like and want to work with long-term. If it’s a brand that maybe they’re a little hesitant about, and the brand wants them to work with them, then that’s maybe we’re all overpriced a little bit. And I know that they’ll pay, maybe. So I think it’s really about knowing the brands.

I don’t know. It’s weird because the brands that I have really good relationships with, like Care/of, I’m never going to overprice and it sounds bad. Like I’m not like, I’m going to be doing what’s fair for the talent and the brand, but I don’t know if it’s because all the clients that I work with, like love Care/of right? All the clients I work with love Liquid I.V. And I love Liquid I.V., personally, right? I’m always going to work with, it’s all about relationships, right? In that sense. 

But I think it’s hard, the people that come off the show, because I do want to give some sort of money figure because I feel like someone that comes off the show at a million followers, let’s say.

I have a client that’s maybe been off the show for four years. That has a million followers, and I know what they make today. Let’s just say, anywhere from, depending on the brand, 5 to 10k, okay? Depending on the person, of course, the celeb status, etc. Because some of those still want 10 to 15. But if you’re coming off the show, and you have high engagement, I may be quoting 15 to 30 K depending on who they are, right?

Or if there’s something big in their life at the time, I’m quoting 15 to 20 K. But at the end of the day, I do truly feel, and my clients do too, it depends on the brand. They don’t want to lose out on a campaign with one of their favorite brands, because I’m putting them 30 K when they would do it for 10.

So I think that’s the biggest problem in this industry I’m trying to have more conversations recently with brands. Even on the phone in person being like tell me what you think they would get approved at my client really wants to work with this brand. So you tell me what you think you can make happen for them And I’ll tell you if they’ll do it and if they won’t then that’s fine. But like even if it’s something low like I want to hear it because I don’t want them to lose out on 

Jessy: Definitely. And I think that like you take a really wise approach because I think that, some managers fall into the trap of just I don’t know, almost like negotiating for negotiations. I think that probably brands can attest to that where it’s that’s the best way to describe it.

They’re just negotiating for negotiation’s sake. And I think like what I’m hearing you say is you’re like you get to know your client and you know what they want. You’re not negotiating for you. You’re negotiating for them. And so if they really love the brands, like of course you’re always trying to get the most money, but there’s also other points to the deal that’s sometimes equally as important to negotiate as the money. 

And if they’re willing to like to scrap all the exclusivity, let’s say, they pay a little under what you’d like them to get for that deal, then you could theoretically work with a company that like maybe is a little bit competitive to them because there’s no exclusivity.

And so you’re like, okay, I’m willing to do that because I was just speaking with this other brand the other day and maybe we can get them on both deals There are just, so many factors to how you come up with the price and most of those decisions should be based on what your client needs and wants. If it’s the holiday season or okay, let’s say it’s back to school season and you work with a bunch of parents and you know that they’re swamped, then you’re probably going to charge a bit of a premium because putting one other brand partnership… 

Courtney: That’s the other thing how busy they are. 

Jessy: How busy they are, like putting one of their brand partnership on their docket during that crazy busy time, is only going to be worth it if it hits a certain number.

But alternatively, if it’s like after the holidays, like that lull between January and February and like they’re a little slow you might be willing to make a succession for that and that’s like general stuff. I think that there are so many more personalizations that you can make based on your client and their needs and their wants which I just think is a wise move. It’s a wise, perspective to take.

 I’m curious in your experience, what are some common mistakes that content creators make when pursuing brand partnerships? And this could be on their own, but like even through managers managers are hustling to get brand partnerships and creators should be too.

So are there any mistakes that they make that you would advise them to avoid?

Courtney: Oh my god. Okay, so I feel like I have a question before from our last discussion so I’ll try to remember it. But I feel like the biggest issue with not the biggest issue. I would say one of the biggest struggles that I have sometimes with brand deals in general, Is my clients posting stuff for free or like for trade, and it could possibly take them out of the running for a competitor.

That I’m in talks with them already and they wouldn’t necessarily know that, but I’ve had situations where a client will post for a free hotel and I’m in talks for a huge campaign for them with another hotel company and I didn’t know that, and so I think there are certain situations where like I’ve even had to tell my clients like look like if you’re working with a hotel or like even I saw like a boat company last week and I’m like literally in talks with another boat club for her and she’s posing for a free boat club and I’m like, what are you doing?

I can’t have you doing that because like you could be getting paid. I feel like it would be going back on my words of what I said earlier today, but I definitely think there’s something about posting organically for sure, certain products. But I also think it’s okay to ask your manager hey do you think it’s okay if I post this?

Just want to make sure that we’re not in talks or something where it could ruin me working with someone else. I’m meeting with people that post Target all the time. You’re never going to get a Walmart campaign. And Target hardly does campaigns. So I don’t know if you’re going to get a Target campaign.

You know what I mean? So I think that those things are always like, so I think that’s like the biggest mistake of just like putting yourself too far in a hole or of course I’m going to bring this up right now, like even people that are posting like Shein and like Fashion Nova and those things, you’re not going to get a free people deal.

You’re just not, you’re not going to get a good American deal. 

Jessy: Is the implication that they’re just undervaluing their brand? They’re like diminishing the value of their brand. Is that the implication? 

Courtney: I think some people like, don’t like the newer brands. I don’t want to be associated with the like the more like cheap brands. If they’re going to promote a luxury product, then they’re not going to want to work with them. 

This is an interesting conversation recently, Jessy, because I like thought it was known by the influencer, but she had no idea. I was like your brand’s like very luxury. Cause I can tell that like, whenever I pitch her to Lancôme or, even like Prada or, high-end perfumes like people are interested in her.

And there are only a few of my clients that people like. Are more the luxury brands are more open to working with I think and she was one of them. But she had no idea. So I had to tell her like look like we shouldn’t do Pretty Little Thing because that’s going to diminish your brand a little bit and why are you going to work with that brand when you can work with a huge luxury brand, but she didn’t even know. 

Jessy: And I can be empathetic to like a creator and say it’s hard to say no when you have like the fear that there won’t be a better company or there won’t be a better opportunity. 

Courtney: There will always you can’t think like that. That’s the biggest thing that I tell people if you say no to this something better is coming. 

Jessy: A thousand percent. You don’t want to operate from a place of fear with anything you have to operate in like a place of abundance. And, I think that that’s one of the many value props that a manager can bring to the table, which is, you’re privy to a lot of conversations that they just aren’t part of and where they should they be a part of, you know that, someone was like, Oh, they have a really beautiful feed.

Like as soon as I have a budget, I want to work with them. And so maybe that’s not going to convert to something right here and right now, but you’re going to file that away and you’re going to say, maybe that’ll convert in the future. Maybe it won’t. It’s okay. But that might indicate.

Courtney: But I believe it will be like if a client checks in with me, that they don’t have any paid campaigns and I see that they posted one time last month Like I know why you don’t have paid campaigns. Like brands look at. So that’s what I think about it and Jessy means to your point like that’s why I like started little red management’s Instagram page that I could even share with just my clients, like some intel of what I learned by talking to brands, and what little mistakes I deal with every day that I can teach all my clients about. 

Jessy: And so if you could think of a couple of things that are top of mind, 

like tips that you would give, whether it’s other managers or creators, like things you think they might not be privy to all the time, things that you think they might not be thinking about. If they could be a fly on the wall, what would you inform them of?

Courtney: Yeah. The biggest thing that I learned, it sounds so silly, Jessy, but if you’re not posting 10 plus story frames a day, brands don’t think that you’re a true influencer because you are not posting your whole entire life all the time. And that’s how you convert, is that your fans know who you are.

And if you’re not posting, they don’t know who you are. And that’s just like a little thing that I love. Another thing that I think is super helpful is, if you have, for example, Sunday night you cook on your stories every single night. I don’t care if it’s in your highlight. I’m sorry, brands don’t care as much that it’s in your highlight.

If they don’t see that you cook and feed you don’t cook. If you do something in stories and you’re not doing it in the feed, you don’t do those things. That’s how I see things if you go on a hike every day or you have a dog that you’re posting about every day and you never post with your dog Like you literally don’t have a dog like that.

And so those are my two tips for consistently posting I said high-quality content like It’s super important. I just think brands are not working with people that don’t produce super high-quality content. I think video content, as I’m sure we all talk about all the time, is just the only thing that really brands are doing now, I think.

Reels and TikToks and that sort of? video content. I have found more popular than even stories these days and of course in feed photos, which is what we were used to, seeing all the time. To learn how to make videos

Jessy: and to that point too, I’m curious, cause with video in terms of quality, like it could be all over the place. You could be like cinematic quality where it almost, I wonder if it almost looks too, professional. Like it almost feels like an ad, like a commercial on TV, but then you go the opposite extreme where it’s like bad lighting.

Like you have, your. phone. It’s just, poor quality. 

What are your thoughts on that? Is there a time and a place for different qualities of video? Should you always assume that it should be high quality in terms of your organic content? Is your brand content different? What are your thoughts on the quality of the video?

Courtney: Yeah, no it’s funny cuz like we were talking about it earlier, if it’s McDonald’s I’m like, okay do I think it depends too on what the brand wants, it makes me mad though. I was going to say oh, what the brand wants.

So they want more professionalism. What have I seen them do in the past it’s hard because they don’t always tell me they assume that if they’ve done something for a brand in the past that they’re also going to do it for them.

I don’t know how to explain it, but it’s mostly if I feel like I get a client brand deal that wants more, I don’t know it feels more like it would need production and more ad-like, you have to put the FTC guidelines, like, all that stuff do high-quality content. 

And for all your other stuff, you can do iPhone photos, but you still need them to be high quality. You can’t just post. Half ass and the problem is that even to me, high-quality content is like still like vibey to me and that could be pixelated too, right? 

So it just depends on what you think is for that specific influence or what high quality even means, whether it’s funny. Whether it’s vibey, whether it’s literally not pixelated and like with a professional camera, right? There are so many different things that could mean high quality now. And what does that mean to you? 

Jessy: True. And I just think like the bar is just so high that like to compete, there’s a level that you have to be at then like like after that point you can go in different directions. You can edit it how you want if you know because I think the editing also could make a difference and like how the quality comes across etc but I do think that there’s a barrier to entry because it’s just if you want to compete and there’s so many creators out there where their organic stuff is just beautiful.

And even stories, which are like, or have always traditionally been the most casual, the most like entry level of video, like even then you still like just good light, good natural light goes a really long way.

Courtney: What I think that’s my biggest thing, Jessy, that I struggle with, especially working with reality stars, like once they get off the show, is if they can’t do content themselves, which like a lot of them can’t get in that routine all the time, I’m like, then invest in the new brand that you have, right?

Your new job and go hire a photographer and videographer that can help you. Because I feel like I’m just so burnt out of these reality stars that do come to me to manage them. And we have to re-share what I know, right? And what works and what doesn’t work and the consistency and having to do all this stuff.

When in actuality if you can’t go do it yourself you need to hire someone and pay for that. You’re not gonna make money if you’re not posting already. Because that’s the whole thing, right? They’ll say oh, I don’t make enough money yet. I’m like… You’re not going to make that money unless you invest in yourself too.

Jessy: Totally, and you can write those things off. You can go into it with a friend like, Oh my God, I’ve seen people be so thrifty when it comes to hiring help in terms of photographers, and videographers. Like I’ve seen people be like, yeah, like, all right, so I have another influencer friend or five and they go into 

the photographer together and it’s like you get an hour, you get an hour and like we all get shots. 

Courtney: All you need is 10 outfits, 15 minutes, I’m just kidding, like an hour with 10 outfits. 

Jessy: And you can get content for a couple of months. Like you can just, change outfits. Change locally. I don’t know. I love being efficient and cost-effective with this stuff, too. That is what will help, influencers who are like up and coming or like just want to take them, get things to the next level. You should be resourceful about stuff. You shouldn’t overspend. So no one’s saying that there are clever ways to get the same result.

So I have a feeling that our listeners are gonna want to connect with you and learn more about you, more about your company. So what is the best way for them to reach out? 

Courtney: Yeah. I always, if it’s a new influencer, I always like email because then I can get back to them when I have time. So my email is Courtney C O U R T N E Y@littleredmgmt.com. You can also follow us on Instagram at little red management or Courtney Bagby. Soon to be Courtney LuPillen, if you’re listening to this in a month. 

Jessy: Amazing. 

We will link all of that in the show notes. And I think the last question I have for you for today, I love talking about predictions and being forward-thinking. 

Courtney: I hate that. I’m just kidding. Am like don’t get me scared. 

Jessy: So maybe I’ll ask you, I’ll end it on a different note. Do you want to do a different question and no predictions? We don’t have to do predictions. You don’t want to do it.

Courtney: No, let’s do predictions, but I want to hear yours first. 

Jessy: Oh man, I gotta be put on the spot. Okay. So we will both today, because you’re hilarious, give our predictions for the rest of 2023. Okay. I will start. So when we’re recording this, we’re barely a week from when Threads was released, which is, the Twitter rival or whatever from Instagram or Meta, technically.

And so in terms of predictions, I do see Threads as being a thing. I don’t really see it as its own influencer strategy. I don’t see it being as its own, like standalone, like we got to just, we’re going to spend 15 grand on a Threads post. No one’s going to be doing that now. And I don’t really even see that into the future. Cause it’s very supplementary, 

Courtney: I want to cut you off this is why I feel this way, same as you, because BeReal became a thing and everyone got on that app and then I still never really saw it as like an influencer strategy. And people are still on it.

Jessy: People are very much still on it and there are a lot of other there are a lot of other platforms that people are legit on. I think that Threads has much more staying power simply because it’s under the Meta umbrella. I think that it was very timely. Elon hadn’t purchased Twitter when he did and has treated Twitter the way that he has, threads would never exist.

Twitter’s been around since frickin forever. You didn’t really see influencer deals on there either, right? So I think that because it’s mostly a text-based app, although, of course, you can still post photos and gifs and all that stuff too, like, I see Instagram as being the primary platform where the most dynamic content can be created.

YouTube as well, but I definitely think people will be experimenting with it. And I do think that there’s an opportunity for some creators who like, they enjoy having conversations and creating Threads, which is everything that threads are about. I do see there as being an additional place where they can that build community.

I think Threads could be really interesting. So I don’t necessarily know what I see as an influencer marketing brand strategy per se. But I will predict that certain influencers will really build community on Threads. And that I’m, I think very smart. 

And I think I look forward to seeing that. That’s my prediction. What’s your prediction? 

Courtney: Yeah. I think for me, I was thinking more of like in the brand world and like campaigns, because I feel like the first half of the year, which like now we’re in Q3, right? So the first half of the year, I feel like has been slower than last year. I will say for me, and I’m mostly hoping that it’s not my problem and more of like just the industry overall and the recession we’re in.

But I’m hopeful that these next six months are going to pick up because of how slow it was at the beginning of the year. And like I always feel brands are always trying to figure out their strategy for the rest of the year, especially always talking about holiday back to school all this time.

So I’m hoping that it’ll pick up now I think it’s also just really gonna be important for all the creators to really just be consistent. I’ve been talking about this the whole time but from their point of view like I can do my job but I can’t do it unless they’re like posting and producing on their own. So just I can’t stress enough how important it is that just because you are this certain reality star or whoever you are, a big name, et cetera.

You have to be consistent and put out content every other day at minimum, otherwise, you’re not going to outshine those people that are content creators that are doing content every day, like the reality stars, which is so convoluted. 

Jessy: Yeah. It is. Sometimes you have to go back to basics. Like people are like, oh, that sounds so basic, but no, actually sometimes you need to go back to basics because like a lot of what we’re talking about today is like the barrier to entry and like how to level up.

And in order to do that, there needs to be a really solid foundation of the quality of content, the consistency in which you’re posting it. And it’s not just any content I consistently hear you say it’s like quality content. And I think that’s what sets apart, somebody who wants to be on the internet from somebody who’s like a true content creator.

It is how hard to constantly have a finger on the pulse of your community to know what they want to hear, what creates buzz, what is going to build excitement and train your audience to buy things and to purchase services or goods or whatever you’re trying to sell. All of that is such a skill. And that’s like the real marker of a true content creator. 

Courtney: I

don’t if you’ve had this Jessy, but I feel like a lot of influencers are like hiring people to manage their social media more and more. What is your opinion on that? Because I personally have only seen it. Once and I, they’re like sales went down how much they were able to sell. 

Jessy: Interesting. So like when that person did it, they’re hiring them to do what exactly on social media? 

Courtney: Captions and like posting on in feed and like making sure that they’re constantly posting, but then I think there’s a lack of like, story content, almost, that they’re like, putting out there, I feel it’s just a personal theory because I’ve only seen it once, but I just was like, curious if you’ve had any experience with it, and what you’ve noticed personally. 

Jessy: Yeah. So really good question. I also wonder if it likes, and will bleed into the world of AI that we are in, are they going to hire someone or will they like having, Chat GPT come up with captions? And sometimes I feel like Chat GPT might come up with a better caption than a shitty social media manager.

So I guess like the first part of your question you get what you pay for. I’ve seen a lot of people try to hire social media managers that are like, right out of college or just like inexperienced, maybe offshore. And in certain instances so I’m all about delegating.

There are absolutely instances like in your job, there are certain instances in your business that you can absolutely, outsource delegate the whole nine, but in my opinion, a lot of those things are the minutiae things that don’t take a ton of skill so that you, or the more experienced people at your company, your business, your brand, whatever it is, so that you can do the more skilled things so that you’re not like living in that minutiae, right?

Captions. I’ve seen people write captions and Chat GPT and it sounds just like the influencer, which is why old. I think that if you end up hiring someone to manage your social media, especially I can see that in like the celebrity space where they have a ton of other stuff going on, but they hear you in the back of their mind is like, I need to post, I need to post all the time, but they have other projects.

It could make a lot of sense, but I would be very cautious to see who you hire and I would recommend an approval process. So maybe they come up with a bunch of content, but I wouldn’t give them the authority to post right away. As I would say, present me with all the posts and I’ll tweak them and approve them before it actually goes live. 

Courtney: That’s good for sure, I feel like it’s hard because you have them, especially some of these people that, feel like they’re best friends with the creators and they were so active on stories all the time that I feel like when someone took over like the infeed side, like it just naturally, like you fell off social media in general and you’re just like not posting a lot. 

Jessy: Yeah, I think it depends, but it’s a really interesting topic. 

Courtney: Yeah, I had to bring it up because you said something and I was like, okay, wait like I need your thoughts. 

Jessy: Yeah, no, it’s super interesting. Look, if I could hire someone to do all my content and for it to actually like sound like, in the voice that I would want it to be in the tone of what we’re writing for it to be what I want it to be like. That’d be freaking amazing. And I’m like a fraction of the content creator that like a real influencer is, but I’d have explored hiring someone to manage our social, but I haven’t found anybody that I think is like really going to do

Courtney: Person’s great, but like she doesn’t have time, but I’m just kidding, but I think it was the best for a little rematch. I wish you would do it for me too, honestly. I think in this day and age the story content world and the deals on that versus the deals in feed, it.

is a different world in the sense that, the brands doing stuff in the feed are more like KPI based and the ones doing stories are more like return investment sort of thing.

And they want their sales back. So I just feel like it depends on what kind of creator you are where like if you’re used to being on stories 24/7 then, you can’t just drop that off, if it’s like me and I’m never on stories anyway, then I’m like, yeah, manage my in feed. We’re good. 

Jessy: Totally. But I will say you know, to have somebody who’s just like on your team who could come up with topics for you to discuss and remind you that it’s time to shoot some content or find all of those Instagrammable moments. Like I will tell you that I’ve had traditional influencers struggle with that and I’ve had you know, more of these like celebrities certainly struggle with that because they’re just not used to it.

But I have one client who like is still very big on social. And I would tell her, I’m like, Jess like you gotta think of all those moments that are just Instagrammable moments. I had to retrain her on when to capture content, like when this might be interesting to see that people would want to know about this side of stuff too.

And so to have someone there, to help stir that up, whether it’s like to actually be on the ground capturing it or actually editing it or just coming up with a bunch of ideas and thought starters and feed you with those prompts. Like I love it. I actually think it’s great. I just think that there needs to definitely be oversight of it.

But if it’s done well, I think it’s brilliant because I think one of the biggest problems that creators have these days is that they’re like, way too oversaturated and reliant upon brand partnerships. And I feel like it to have staying power, to have longevity and to just like simply have a more like fulfilling career, you got to do more than that. You got to do more than that. 

Courtney: But to hire people and no, I get that. 

Jessy: But you also have to just like. You want to get out of the weeds and you want to continue to grow. And I just feel like you hire the right people and now you can launch your own clothing line because now you have more time. 

Courtney: No, I think you have to come up with those like other things that you’re gonna work on and like also have your own personal goals of like how you want it to be and that you are like growing that’s the thing too, is if you’re doing that and you’re not getting the views that you used to, you know. 

Jessy: And that’s what they say. They say if you’re not growing you’re dying and I feel like on social media like it’s a really dramatic thing to say but.

Courtney: Hold on, let’s, this is a whole nother conversation now cause you’re also weeding out those people that are never going to buy from you and aren’t watching anyway. So sometimes you’re slim in the fat, but

I get it, like you have to have those views that are growing. Or just like these days, I just truly believe if you can put out good content, people will hire you. So that’s the thing. And good can mean so many things as we just talked about. It depends on the brand. I guess I’ll stop talking. 

Jessy: Maybe we’ll have to do a part two because there’s a lot to say and I’m enjoying the conversation a lot. Like I mentioned before, we will drop all of Courtney’s info in the show notes. You can definitely reach out. She’s also a member of Wiim, so you’ll definitely see her around the community.

It’s been such a pleasure having you on today, so thank you for joining.

Courtney: Always. So great. Catching up.  

Jessy: Same agreed and I hope that you guys reach out to Courtney. She’s awesome. And for all of you guys listening, first of all, keep listening for the next episode because the next one will come after if you haven’t listened to last week’s yet.

And then for all of you guys who’ve already listened, we will see you next week.