Is SAG-AFTRA the Answer?

[00:00:00] Shaine Griffin: We have really invested in partnering with our members and their teams to make sure like how do we navigate this? Because we don’t want folks to lose out on work opportunities. That’s really important to us And so we’re always trying to work with people as to how do we make this work? And like, okay, let’s be flexible over here.

[00:00:20] Shaine Griffin: Let’s do this But like we’re always trying to figure out a path forward that will not impact that job If that makes sense and that’s it totally makes sense

[00:00:36] Jessy Grossman: Hey guys, welcome back to the pod. I’m super happy to be here with you guys. I know last week’s episode was bit of a doozy. If some of you were listening, I’m like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. about. We had an episode just about a company that’s been allegedly paying influencers and managers, like incredibly, like egregiously late, unresponsive.

[00:01:00] Jessy Grossman: People are having to hire lawyers to send demand letters, et cetera, et cetera. It’s been pretty, really unfortunate to see because this is not a new company. This is a company that I’ve personally known about, worked with years ago, four years. And it’s just, it’s like a real shame to see, because I said this last time, I’ll repeat it again.

[00:01:18] Jessy Grossman: Like I am not a fan of cancel culture, like at all whatsoever. I believe that like people should have the opportunity to learn and to grow and to be accountable and to change. And it benefits the industry as a whole. If this company that’s doing a ton of business with a ton of people Writes their lungs and improves their processes and gets their act together.

[00:01:41] Jessy Grossman: So I’m genuinely rooting for captivate. I want you guys to figure this out, but I more so just want everybody to be made whole. It looks equally bad on our industry when. Like by my estimation, hundreds of people have been paid egregiously late. I would never bring this up if we’re talking about like a month or under with a length of time for a late payment.

[00:02:06] Jessy Grossman: We’re talking about people who are telling me that they have been paid for over a year. Anyways, I appreciate you guys listening to that. And I appreciate those of you who countless people, especially on, on LinkedIn. Who reached out to share your stories, both publicly, privately on slack. I mean, everywhere you guys have reached out and I’m always happy to have whim be like a, an advocacy organization to be able to help you guys as much as possible.

[00:02:31] Jessy Grossman: Like I have no direct skin in that game. Captivate’s never been a sponsor of ours. I’ve never paid to use their product. I’ve done deals with them back in the day when I was a talent manager, but like, I have no skin in that game. So if us as an organization. Can step in and, you know, shed some light on an issue that people are, it’s like a pretty widespread issue.

[00:02:55] Jessy Grossman: I’m always happy to do that. We did it last year with, you know, the Carter agency. We’ve done it this year with captivate. And I’ve also had people reach out about other things. For example, someone sent me an email today that looks like some random Gmail account. I almost deleted it because I thought it was spam.

[00:03:10] Jessy Grossman: I read through it and I was like, I know this is meant to be like, here’s a hot tip on a salacious story. I was like, maybe I’m missing something, but like, this doesn’t seem newsworthy to me. Like, it just seems like a harsh business decision. Anyways, like some people will try to utilize our organization to get their agenda out there.

[00:03:29] Jessy Grossman: Like, please just know that like, we’re really sort of like digging into these things before I would. Ever attach someone’s name to it. And of course I’m saying allegedly because like, again, I have no skin in this game. This doesn’t personally affect me, but I’ve heard from so many people we’re talking about, like, there was like 80 plus comments.

[00:03:50] Jessy Grossman: On the LinkedIn post alone with people publicly sharing their stories, people who’ve reached out to me through, you know, in wins. So we’re talking about like close to a hundred people who’ve shared issues that they’ve had. It’s only when something gets to that point that I would ever make this much of a stance on it.

[00:04:08] Jessy Grossman: My goal is that they make people right and they do right by them. They pay them, they make them whole. So that’s what I’m hoping for. Um, that conversation also parlays. So nicely into the interview that we’re having today, because if you have felt, I feel like this is like an ad for a lawyer. If you have felt wronged, if you have felt, you know, taken advantage of, we have a conversation with a good friend of mine.

[00:04:33] Jessy Grossman: Her name is Shane Griffin, and she works at Salesforce. SAG AFTRA. So they are an organization that’s been around for, I think, over a hundred years, I mean, decades and decades, traditionally helping artists, recording artists and actors, performers to advocate for them and to get them better protections, to get them health insurance, to get them protections on sets and dangerous situations, and just advocate for artists who in many instances could absolutely use.

[00:05:04] Jessy Grossman: Well, in 2021, they released this influencer agreement, and I know I got a lot of talk back then, and we actually even did a virtual event with Shane back then to sort of explain it, but so much has changed since then. There’s been so much progress and. I am so curious to hear what you guys think after listening to this conversation with Shane, where she asked her a lot of like technical things, but also broad questions like, all right, what are all the benefits?

[00:05:33] Jessy Grossman: What can you guys be doing for creators and the creator economy to better it? What’s on your roadmap? We asked her, I asked her all sorts of things and she’s the best. So she gave me very candid, great answers, but. I’m very curious to hear what you think, like, is the value prop enough? Do you see this as something that could really take off?

[00:05:53] Jessy Grossman: Or do you think that they’re like a bit out of their scope? I’m very curious to hear what you have to say, but before we jump in a little bit about Shane Griffin, so she. Is the manager of contract strategic initiatives and podcasts at SAG AFTRA and comes to this work are the real passion for how talent and advertisers are navigating new and emerging platforms.

[00:06:18] Jessy Grossman: She spent many years exploring how influencers and SAG AFTRA intersect and was instrumental in the development of the influencer agreement, which she now also administers. She brings to her work experience in labor organizing, community organizing. And business affairs. She’s a great resource y’all. And her, she mentioned so many times during this episode, how, if you have questions, reach out, if you have questions, reach out, I gave her so many outs, you guys, I’m like, Do you really want this many people reaching out to you personally and emailing you?

[00:06:56] Jessy Grossman: And she’s truly like has a heart of gold. You guys like she genuinely means it. She really is happy to be a support system and advocacy representative. She’s so genuine in that. So her email address is linked in the show notes and she means it. So we’ll go over a lot of stuff today. I hope this clarifies some misconceptions and we demystify SAG AFTRA.

[00:07:20] Jessy Grossman: Definitely comment on this podcast and let me know, like, are you sold or are they almost there? And how do you think they can really help? What do you think they need to do in order to get there? If they’re not yet, Shane’s also super open to feedback. And it’s a really interesting conversation because, you know, we just talked about this last week on the podcast, how some people aren’t getting paid.

[00:07:44] Jessy Grossman: We know lots of people are being taken advantage of, and I would love to see a world in which all of that can be solved. So without further ado, this is SAG AFTRA’s attempt at solving some of those problems. Enjoy, you guys.

[00:08:00] Jessy Grossman: This show is sponsored by Women in Influencer Marketing, better known as WIM, the best online community for the creator economy. You will meet fellow influencer marketers. You’ll meet brands. You’ll meet talent agencies to talk shop, get hired, and even find a mentor. When you become a member, do not forget Check out all of our incredible resources.

[00:08:24] Jessy Grossman: For example, we have dozens of masterclasses from the top voices, TikTok, YouTube, award winning agencies, and women who are paving the way for us all. So if you want the chance to network with a who’s who in influencer marketing, check out what it takes to become a member. Make more money and have fun doing it.

[00:08:45] Jessy Grossman: Visit IamWim. com slash join. That’s I A M W I M. I am. com slash join today. And I so look forward to seeing you more around the community. So I’m just really excited to have you on. I enjoy when we get to catch up and I enjoy when I get to see you every so often, not often enough, but I’m excited this time that I get to.

[00:09:13] Jessy Grossman: catch up with you and other people get to learn from you on the podcast today. So first and foremost, thanks for being here. And how are you? I’m 

[00:09:21] Shaine Griffin: great. And thank you so much for inviting me on to your podcast. I’m so excited. I always, like you said, love when we get the opportunity to chat. It’s always really interesting and I learn stuff.

[00:09:34] Shaine Griffin: So I’m excited for this opportunity. 

[00:09:36] Jessy Grossman: Let’s dig in. Let’s dig in. And there’s so much to dig into, but I think like before we do, like sure, we heard about you, like on paper in the intro to the show, but like, I just, I think, I don’t know, I get more out of hearing it like in your own words. I just love to hear a little bit about like.

[00:09:54] Jessy Grossman: Your professional journey and how you ended up like at SAG AFTRA today. Oh my goodness. 

[00:10:00] Shaine Griffin: That’s such a interesting story. Whose isn’t, but no. So I actually went to graduate school to be a social worker and I always knew I wanted to be in the nonprofit world to help folks and long story short, I needed a summer internship and one of my professors was like, You should explore the labor movement.

[00:10:21] Shaine Griffin: And I was like, I just need to know it’s paid. It’s a paid opportunity. She’s like, yes, it’s paid. And, you know, I got this internship with the AFL CIO, which is the labor federation, and I fell in love. It was love at first sight and I never looked back. And from there, after graduation, I started my journey as a labor organizer with the nurses union.

[00:10:41] Shaine Griffin: So I was organizing nurses primarily in. Orange County and then SAG AFTRA actually reached out after a few years of me doing that. And I was like, what, that’s so different than what I’m doing, but I was quite curious and it was such an interesting opportunity to really dig into an area. in a workforce that is just so different than traditional organizing.

[00:11:05] Shaine Griffin: And it was really exciting. So I took the opportunity and I’ve been here seven years and really early on in my journey at SAG AFTRA, I became very interested in the world of influencer marketing. 

[00:11:17] Jessy Grossman: And just where did that come from? I’m curious because like, I think a lot of us like no SAG AFTRA for actors and performers.

[00:11:27] Jessy Grossman: And I think it’s awesome that you guys as an organization are like absolutely in the influencer space, but like, where did your interest in that come from? It’s a good 

[00:11:37] Shaine Griffin: question. So I was brought on primarily to look at how advertising was shifting and changing and evolving and how it was impacting our members who work in that space.

[00:11:47] Shaine Griffin: And this is 2017, and I kept, as I was researching and trying to understand the lay of the land, kept seeing articles and stories about influencer marketing and how advertisers are really investing in this space. And at the same time, as I was like, what’s happening over here? A lot of our members started knocking on our doors saying, Hey.

[00:12:09] Shaine Griffin: I’m starting to be approached by advertisers who want me to partner with them and promote on my socials. How does that work as a union member? And we didn’t really have a great answer for them at that point. So I just started knocking on everyone’s door who would talk to me about this space. Because we really felt like, Hey, our members are starting to work in this space.

[00:12:34] Shaine Griffin: And there were also simultaneously talent that we wanted to invite into this community who were hesitant because they’re like, you didn’t really build anything that really meets my needs as of yet. So, so from there, we actually. Built the influencer agreement. We launched it in 2021 and it’s been really exciting and I’m hopeful that we’ll continue to progress in this space and support talent who are working a lot in.

[00:13:07] Shaine Griffin: This area. So that’s kind of our journey. 

[00:13:10] Jessy Grossman: Yeah. And can like utilize a lot of the hard work and the legwork that you guys have done for so many years for a different type of talent. You know, it makes sense that like that they don’t like influencers didn’t need to start from scratch. They could use all of that hard work that you guys have done for actors and like, hopefully have it apply to them as well.

[00:13:30] Jessy Grossman: But there are a lot of like, definitely differences between traditional like acting talent. and influencers. Like I come from that world. I, and I also was there probably a very similar time where the actors that I used to represent were now, if they were on like a Netflix show or something, their Instagram inevitably blew up as well.

[00:13:52] Jessy Grossman: And so then they started getting brand endorsement, like inquiries. And as an agency, we’re going through like a very similar thing where we were like, well, there’s something here, but like, It looks so different from what we were all used to. And so just all learning together, like how do we handle this?

[00:14:11] Jessy Grossman: So what I think I want to like mostly focus on today is learning from you to see like how can influencers utilize, participate in, get benefits from SAG AFTRA, how managers can navigate that, like, you know, brands, everyone in the creator economy. And if and how this can also be really beneficial to them.

[00:14:38] Jessy Grossman: So that’s what I’m hoping to like dig into today. I’m very excited. And I think like. Maybe a good place to start is just learning about the benefit to joining. So there are annual dues, right? And there’s probably commitments like to join. So I’m curious, like what are the commitments and dues that are owed?

[00:15:01] Jessy Grossman: And then. Most excitingly, like what are all the benefits that people get for paying and participating in it? Amazing. Yeah. 

[00:15:08] Shaine Griffin: Let’s dig into all of that. So before we do, I kind of want to provide some context as to who we are for folks who aren’t as familiar. I mean, I think everyone has heard of SAG AFTRA, but then when you dig a little deeper, it’s like, well, what is SAG AFTRA actually?

[00:15:22] Shaine Griffin: So we’re a labor union that represents 160, 000 professional performers, right? And so a lot of folks associate us with actors. And television projects, TV projects, but our membership are comprised of actors, stunt performers, voiceover artists, broadcasters, podcasters, puppeteers, music recording artists, and now influencers, right?

[00:15:49] Shaine Griffin: So I think it’s really important to start there because we represent a We have a slew of entertainment professionals who maybe don’t fit in that acting box, right? But are appearing in front of a camera or behind their microphone. And we do provide a variety of benefits for our folks. One most notable thing is our contracts that our folks work under when they’re working in a variety of projects, whether it’s like a TV project or a music video or a video game.

[00:16:19] Shaine Griffin: Our contracts make sure that. A, there’s like wages and working conditions that people can build upon. And I think that’s really important to emphasize is that we work really hard to create floors, baselines of pay and how people are treated in these jobs. Landscapes in this environment. And then, 

[00:16:41] Jessy Grossman: and these are like traditionally people who have been taken advantage of and really like almost need these protections sometimes, like, you know, I hate to compare to other people, but like certainly need them.

[00:16:52] Jessy Grossman: And then some instances, it almost feels like they need them more than other people. So like there’s a need stake there, right? There’s a need stake. And I think 

[00:16:59] Shaine Griffin: one thing that’s really interesting about working with this professional community versus like. Teachers are nurses is folks like it’s an art, it’s a craft, it’s a passion, it’s a calling, not to say that teaching and nursing isn’t, but it’s a very different type of working.

[00:17:15] Shaine Griffin: And I think there’s a lot of folks who really tried to take advantage of that love of performance. And so one of our jobs as a labor union is to say, like, we want to make sure everyone’s able to create the art that they want to create the product they want to create. Bye. That our members are protected in the process, right?

[00:17:35] Shaine Griffin: So that is really important. Obviously, when there’s a set, and this doesn’t really apply to influencers, that they’re safe on set. Those places are really dangerous in general. So all of those things, they always have someone to call. We also help with like, if folks aren’t paid accurately or on time. We go after and make sure that money is, you know, rerouted to them in a, inappropriate way.

[00:17:58] Shaine Griffin: And all of that stuff, if there’s issues, we are able to step in, 

[00:18:03] Jessy Grossman: love to dig into that for a second. Cause I’m sure a lot of people’s ears perked up, especially with that last component. It’s been something that like us as an organization have been trying to champion for the longest time, which is paying people on time.

[00:18:18] Jessy Grossman: And it’s like a rampant. Issue in the influencer world in particular. So I’d love to dig in a little bit to that in terms of like the amount of support and like the type of support that you guys do provide to influencers in that capacity. 

[00:18:34] Shaine Griffin: Yeah, it’s a really great question. So, you know, I think a lot of folks are familiar with the influencer agreement because that’s what I think got the most attention when we announced.

[00:18:43] Shaine Griffin: And one of the things that. I talk most about because it’s so unique, but what doesn’t always get as much attention is what I call the twin of the influencer agreement, which is the influencer waiver, and that is a part of the commercials contract. That was built specifically to meet the needs of influencer marketing, and in that, there are certain protections in terms of timely pay, and that’s really exciting, and I don’t think everyone fully understands, like, the commercials contract is an incredible agreement that has so many protections, and the influencer waiver is part of that, right?

[00:19:22] Shaine Griffin: And so that if use is migrated, if folks aren’t paid, they can contact us and we’re able to help them navigate. 

[00:19:29] Jessy Grossman: I think that, I mean, I could just share, we were actually talking about it on last week’s episode. There was like a big agency that’s been around for the longest time and. There are people who are like six months to a year behind in getting paid.

[00:19:44] Jessy Grossman: And they all signed agreements. And you know, in some of those, many of those instances, hopefully more than not, they had lawyers review those agreements. And I think that agreements are only as powerful as the ability to like enforce them, right. And that can be really tricky. So I wonder, like. If that’s the case, right?

[00:20:04] Jessy Grossman: Like if an influencer is a member of SAG AFTRA and they, is it, by the way, is it SAG AFTRA or is it SAG now? It’s SAG AFTRA. Thank you for asking. Yeah. Okay. I thought that was the case. People refer to it as SAG and I just wanted to clarify that. Okay. Yeah. So people, you know, an influencer, they’re, you know, they’ve joined the union.

[00:20:27] Jessy Grossman: And they had a partnership with an agency, signed an agreement that says you’re supposed to be paid in 30 days from, let’s say, X date, whatever. So that date comes and they’re not being paid. What do they do? Like, can they just reach out to you and what do they say? What do you guys do? Like, I’d love to get as granular as possible.

[00:20:48] Jessy Grossman: I just know this is a big issue in our industry. 

[00:20:51] Shaine Griffin: So I think the most important thing to note with that is that our members would be having to work under a SAG AFTRA agreement for us to be able to advise and step in that situation, right? If they were working outside of one of our agreements, we would be limited.

[00:21:10] Shaine Griffin: And what we’re able to do for them, and which is another reason why it’s so important that our members always work under SAG AFTRA agreements, because we really feel strongly, like, yes, the influencer marketing space has developed and matured in such significant ways, but it’s still very much the Wild West in other ways, right?

[00:21:28] Shaine Griffin: So we always want our members to be as open as possible. Protected as humanly possible, and that’s not to undermine the incredible managers and agents and lawyers that they’ve assembled around them. Like it’s incredible, but why not also add your 

[00:21:44] Jessy Grossman: union, right? A hundred percent. I love that. So I guess one question that I have for you is like, if a creator joins the union, are they able to work on non union jobs as an influencer or are As a union member, are they then required to only work on union jobs?

[00:22:03] Jessy Grossman: So union 

[00:22:04] Shaine Griffin: members have this thing called global rule one. It’s a membership rule upon joining the union. And it basically says that within our jurisdiction. So when we have a contract that applies and it’s, there’s some kind of video or voiceover element, they shouldn’t be always working under a union agreement.

[00:22:22] Shaine Griffin: So. I think what I would say to that is, yes, they should be working under union contracts. We recognize that it’s still such a weird, fluid space. So we have really invested in partnering with our members and their teams to make sure like, how do we navigate this? Because we don’t want folks to lose out on work opportunities.

[00:22:44] Shaine Griffin: That’s really important to us. And so we’re always trying to work with people as to how do we make this work and like, okay, let’s be flexible over here or let’s do this. But like, we’re always trying to figure out a path forward that will not impact that job. If that makes sense. And that’s, 

[00:23:00] Jessy Grossman: it totally makes sense.

[00:23:02] Jessy Grossman: I think that’s probably like a concern for sure for a lot of creators. I can imagine because correct me if I’m wrong, if you see something different, but I would think that most partnerships in the creator economy. Don’t necessarily go through the union. And so I’m sure they’re conflicted. Right. Or like, I hear about all of these like wonderful protections, but I don’t want to limit myself because maybe like people haven’t all gotten on board yet.

[00:23:32] Jessy Grossman: And so for those people, like, do you still recommend them joining? And if they do, I want to dig into. All the, 

[00:23:42] Shaine Griffin: I definitely recommend them reaching out because I really don’t think there’s a one size fits all. So I want to talk to folks about their concerns, about their desires and how they want to grow and develop in this space.

[00:23:55] Shaine Griffin: Because I really do feel like we help provide just another tool in the toolbox of building a sustainable future as a professional performer. Right. 

[00:24:06] Jessy Grossman: And that’s hugely important, you know, that’s hugely important. I talk about that all the time on this show in our community about like professionalizing what you’re doing, thinking about retirement, pension, health insurance, like all of these things that you guys, I know you guys provide.

[00:24:21] Jessy Grossman: And these are all incredibly important things. So I think like, I want to see the worlds come closer together. Like that’s something that I just will say out loud, but I interrupted you, I’m sorry. 

[00:24:33] Shaine Griffin: I love that, but it’s real. As folks kind of grow into this space and really build a solid foundation as a creator, right?

[00:24:43] Shaine Griffin: It’s time to also be recognized as a professional in the broadest sense, and to make sure that they’re getting health insurance benefits, that they are building towards their pension, and those are things that we have, right? And I also think that it’s really important, because the space is still relatively new compared to like, Film or TV.

[00:25:05] Shaine Griffin: We don’t know what a lot of these creators journeys are going to be longterm. And so if they can build a pension and lock it in as little as five years, right with us, that is huge to know that you have that waiting for you at the end of your career, because there’s no guarantees. And it’s so, I can’t emphasize that enough as like someone whose grandmother was a teacher, a unionized teacher, and really relied on her pension.

[00:25:32] Shaine Griffin: At the end of her life. Like I’ve seen it firsthand. It’s incredible. And it’s not as volatile as a 401k it is locked in. So that’s really, I think, really important to folks to consider. But going back to the concern you raised of folks being like, I don’t ever want to turn down jobs. I don’t know if I want to join because of the commitment.

[00:25:54] Shaine Griffin: I think the thing that we created, the influencer agreement, the beauty of it. Is that it empowers the creator to flip a job from non union to union without ever having to disclose that to their brand partner if they don’t feel comfortable. 

[00:26:11] Jessy Grossman: Can we dig into that a little more to understand that because that’s interesting and I would love to learn more.

[00:26:16] Shaine Griffin: Yes, we heard early on that was a concern of people being like, I’m scared if I bring this, you know, need for this project to go union to the brand partner who maybe Isn’t as familiar and might get scared right with like the paperwork. There’s not really that much paperwork But everyone thinks there is the paperwork the added fees the complication the extra work that they have to incur And it was a real concern that we took very seriously.

[00:26:45] Shaine Griffin: And so the way that we structured the influencer agreement is super different than all of our other contracts. So the creator can actually negotiate just like they normally do with their brand partner, with the agency that’s representing the brand partner, they can actually secure that deal. And once fully executed, they can walk it over to us and they can use their own business entity, their LLC, or their S Corp.

[00:27:11] Shaine Griffin: To be the official SAG AFTRA signatory on the project and make it a union project. The brand doesn’t ever have to know. They can know. We also, we always encourage them to disclose it if they feel comfortable because there’s some benefits in doing that. But if they really just feel like, I know that this is going to cost me my job with this brand, they have that flexibility to just do it on their 

[00:27:34] Jessy Grossman: own.

[00:27:34] Jessy Grossman: So interesting. So if the brand, like theoretically, you know, it’s an option like doesn’t even need to know, like you said, I would assume that there’s also no additional like burden in terms of like payment costs, like the paperwork, like all that falls on the signatory, which you said could be the creator’s company.

[00:27:56] Jessy Grossman: Mm-Hmm. . Interesting. And so like, what would be the benefit of the creator taking on that work? Like how does that protect them? If. It sounds like a lot of that is like them, almost with themselves. 

[00:28:11] Shaine Griffin: No, it’s a great question. So I think first and foremost, why it attracts a lot of folks is that it helps them qualify for their benefits, right?

[00:28:19] Shaine Griffin: And they’re not relying fully on their brand partners to do the right thing. And to make sure that the brand is contributing a percentage to help them qualify, which I think it’s so minimal. I think everyone should be able to do it, but. I get it. So a lot of creators actually use that option to help them make sure that they get their benefits, especially during times, you know, during the strike, right?

[00:28:44] Shaine Griffin: Where some of the other contract areas were slowing down just cause we were on strike. A lot of folks, you know, looked to this Avenue to make sure that they didn’t fall out of coverage or they were still earning towards their pension. But so that’s one, right? But also. We review kind of what they’re agreeing to with the brand and we invite folks before they fully execute to make sure it’s going to fit under what we allow under the influence agreement.

[00:29:10] Shaine Griffin: So we’re very passionate that the influencer retain ownership of the content. That is like a non negotiable for us. And we will sing it from the mountaintops because we want them to have full control over how their brand develops over the course of their career. And if they give away some of that, some of their content, some of their IP, some of what they built, I think it, it de leverages them and.

[00:29:35] Shaine Griffin: In many ways. And because we’re now entering into an agreement with the creator versus the brand, we’re not able to help enforce, you know, maybe misuse of that content. And that’s something that we can do under the influence or waiver, right? When the brand is now in partnership with us. And all of a sudden, they’re like, we’re going to put this on TV or we’re going to put this somewhere else.

[00:29:58] Shaine Griffin: And We’re like, well, you have to pay the talent appropriately. 

[00:30:03] Jessy Grossman: Um, and I think it’s important too, cause some people don’t like fully appreciate like that. There is a difference between ownership and licensing out usage to something, right? Because they’re like, well, if I own it, like, of course the brand wants to use it.

[00:30:17] Jessy Grossman: I don’t think like no one’s saying that they’re two separate things. So both can exist, right? We totally 

[00:30:23] Shaine Griffin: encourage, like if the brand wants usage rights, license it to them for a duration of time. Not in perpetuity, right, but in an appropriate amount of time so that it gives the talent the opportunity to renegotiate if they want to extend the partnership or explore other ways that it can grow and evolve.

[00:30:42] Jessy Grossman: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I appreciate about SAG, and like, I learned, So much of like ins and outs of like the entertainment industry, like through the rules that were created through your union. And I think that like, a lot of it is like kind of negotiating one on one in a lot of instances, but like people don’t have the aware, like education or certainly even the awareness to know, like, what is the goal here in terms of like, this is my, a option negotiations, or you go back and forth and you meet in the middle, but like, this is the ideal.

[00:31:12] Jessy Grossman: And like learning why that is important for them and how that protects them and how that impacts them longterm and all that stuff. So, okay. So 

[00:31:22] Shaine Griffin: I also like, I think as we, as an industry and this sang after has a role in this, but it’s much bigger than us. We all come together and we say, this is the foundation of what we’re all willing to accept.

[00:31:37] Shaine Griffin: It’s going to help everyone. A rising tide raises all ships. Right. And I’m not saying like, let’s take advantage of our brand partners by any means, but let’s build a sustainable ecosystem so that these incredibly talented creators can continue to develop this amazing content that helps benefit the brands.

[00:31:58] Jessy Grossman: A hundred percent. And like real talk. Like. Yeah. There is a power dynamic here, right? Like it, there is power in numbers. And I think that traditionally in our industry and like the influencer industry, like it feels very siloed. Like it feels like, you know, you’re there to protect yourself and like, it’s, you know, you’re out for your own benefits.

[00:32:17] Jessy Grossman: And I think that that’s sort of the opposite of what a union Offers and like the whole spirit of what a union is all about. It’s about like joining together as an organization, as a community to do exactly what you said, which is like all help each other by investing in the collective 

[00:32:38] Shaine Griffin: vision. Ford, right?

[00:32:41] Shaine Griffin: I get really excited by it personally, but yeah, no, 

[00:32:45] Jessy Grossman: and I love that. And it’s like, it’s idealistic. And like, we, we could use some of that. I think that it’s like, make it, I appreciate what I hear you saying, which is like a lot of these ideas are idealistic, but you’ve implemented them in, in film and TV and all these things.

[00:33:00] Jessy Grossman: So it’s not unrealistic, but I hear that you recognize that like the creator economy is like, it’s, it’s, it’s, It’s just different by nature of it just being a different beast. And it sounds like you guys are fairly open minded and trying to problem solve for some of the nuanced differences too. 

[00:33:15] Shaine Griffin: Thank you for saying that.

[00:33:16] Shaine Griffin: And I think what’s been really crucial to how we’ve rolled out. Our options in the space for coverage has been the feedback we’ve gotten from the industry itself from creators, but also managers and agents and lawyers, and we’re always looking for that feedback because we want to know what works and what doesn’t, especially as we move forward in, like, the next iteration or the next version, right?

[00:33:42] Shaine Griffin: Like, we want to know how can we best support this community? and not create something that is a burden. That’s not the goal, right? We’re here to help, 

[00:33:53] Jessy Grossman: not hurt. So totally. And so what has some of the feedback been that’s been like the most instrumental for you guys in that you’re like, that is really valid.

[00:34:03] Jessy Grossman: We need to address this. 

[00:34:05] Shaine Griffin: I think the biggest in real talk, the biggest issue we’ve Encountered is under the influencer agreement in particular, we don’t allow for other people to join the creator in the content because of many reasons that I won’t go into fully, but because we’re entering into agreement with the creator.

[00:34:27] Shaine Griffin: Who’s then employing other folks. We don’t want a situation in which the other folks have an issue with the creator and then come to the union. And then now we’re in a contentious relationship with the creator. That’s not something that we want to take on. We want to build something that supports the creator, 

[00:34:44] Jessy Grossman: not pits us.

[00:34:45] Jessy Grossman: So keeping it clean. So like an example of that, like is an example of that, even if like. A family influencer has their kids in the content or are we mostly talking about like, you know, collaborating with another YouTuber and having them all in a video together? 

[00:34:59] Shaine Griffin: Yeah, exactly. It’s like having a friend or like I just had a situation in which the brand wanted the talent to hire other people to be in the content.

[00:35:09] Shaine Griffin: Like themselves. And I was like, that’s gonna be an issue. But that said, like, we are very flexible and looking at every case by case and saying, okay, well, what can we do here to support this creator and their team and making sure that the creative still works, that everyone’s still supported and that this job is not in jeopardy.

[00:35:29] Shaine Griffin: Just because we’re saying no over here, okay, well, maybe we can explore this or this, you know, so we’re always about finding solutions. It’s messy. If we open it up fully, it’s messy. 

[00:35:41] Jessy Grossman: Yeah, definitely. And that’s, so that’s great. Like what has been like other feedback, like both good and critical? I mean, critical and just like, Saying like, I want this to work, but it seems like there’s like a misalignment, like what, uh, like anything else?

[00:35:56] Jessy Grossman: Yeah, 

[00:35:57] Shaine Griffin: I think this is more for the creators who don’t have teams built out they, because they don’t have folks who are well versed in this space and this is not just smaller creators, these are folks who are maybe more established on the traditional space and just trying to dabble, you know, so we see the whole range, but they don’t necessarily know what these contracts mean.

[00:36:21] Shaine Griffin: And so they’re agreeing to things that we’re just like, don’t agree to that. What are you doing ? Just because it’s a different language. It’s a different ecosystem. So something that we developed within the, during the strike so it didn’t get much attention ’cause we were a little busy, is we created like the top five things that we always recommend to be in an influencer brand deal.

[00:36:41] Shaine Griffin: And is a very basic step, right? It’s just like outline the usage, right? We do talk about ownership of the content. We talk about just like the very basics, but these are things that I think folks who are trying to navigate the space alone are not equipped yet to handle because they just, where would they find the tools for that?

[00:37:01] Shaine Griffin: There’s no roadmap. And then I see them agreeing to things with brands and by the time they bring it to us, I’m like, Oh no. Do you know what you just signed? So we’re trying to do a lot more education in that space because I also think it’s going to help the entire industry if we support creators on all levels.

[00:37:18] Jessy Grossman: Quick question for you guys. How much do you love redlining agreements? Yeah, me too. Let me tell you about our latest sponsor called Caveat. So Caveat with a K is an AI powered contracting platform that simplifies and optimizes. Automates your contracts. It’ll hugely improve the way that you review partnership agreements.

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[00:38:56] Jessy Grossman: Like, I don’t know, I hot take, but I feel like. They’re again, like I come from the entertainment industry and I have just like personally observed where there are some like there’s some areas where like it almost feels like predatory in the way that the artists are You Like, are almost like expected to not know anything and to be like, I don’t know.

[00:39:27] Jessy Grossman: I need you to help me. And I think that there are some managers who operate in that way. I think they’re like brands who work with influencers and like they’ll sign anything, blah, blah, blah. And like, so I agree with you. I think that like, It’s the educational part of it and not just surrounding them with people who can take care of it for them, but so they have like a fundamental understanding of it themselves.

[00:39:55] Jessy Grossman: I think it’s just a hugely important. So I love that. I appreciate that a lot. And I’m 

[00:40:01] Shaine Griffin: hopeful that we’re going to be leaning more into that in the near future. Just really teaching people just the basic tools. And that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have teams, right? As they grow and develop, they should, but just that they know to your point.

[00:40:18] Shaine Griffin: What they’re agreeing to. I always say it’s show business. It’s a business as well. So I’m really excited. And like, I really appreciate all the other organizations that are also trying to just shine light on these spaces that are a little, um, mystified like yours, right? Like what you’re doing, Jesse is incredible, but.

[00:40:38] Shaine Griffin: It’s exciting. We’re all like, we’re building 

[00:40:40] Jessy Grossman: something. We’re building something. That’s really exciting. That’s always really exciting. We got in a few questions from members of WHM who knew that we were going to be having this conversation and they’re like very, they just wanted to learn more from you.

[00:40:55] Jessy Grossman: So I’d love to ask a couple of them if we were the last Well, if we have time. So we have a lot of talent managers in WIM and they’re like, I would love for my creator to be more protected, make more money, have all these protections. A hundred percent. I think that, well, there was one like technical question that a manager asked.

[00:41:17] Jessy Grossman: They said, how does payment come through to management if the campaign is running through SAG? So 

[00:41:26] Shaine Griffin: it shouldn’t really impact anything under the influencer agreement. It would be business as normal, but I advocate for talent who are opting into using the influencer agreement in particular, if they feel comfortable.

[00:41:41] Shaine Griffin: Having this conversation with their brands. Again, we talked about they don’t need to ever disclose it to the band, but if they do, I always advocate for the creator to break out their talent fee from their pension and health contribution amount, which is 4. 1%. Because it’s a non commissionable one time fee for the purpose of remitting contributions.

[00:42:03] Shaine Griffin: It helps the creator. It just makes it cleaner between the manager, the creator, the agent, the lawyer, in terms of like what the commission is based on, what dues, SAG AFTRA dues are based on, just all the things. I think it’s much cleaner. Right. But otherwise it shouldn’t impact anything. You guys figure that out.

[00:42:24] Jessy Grossman: Got it. Okay. That’s really helpful. And I think also another manager was asking like, what should talent managers know in order to process the documentation correctly? And is there, like you’re talking about, there’s actually not as much as you would think, but I’m, I just want to make sure that like, they’re usually the ones who are overseeing contracts and the expectation is that they would have enough knowledge to be able to make sure this is all being processed properly.

[00:42:49] Jessy Grossman: So, you know, is there anything that managers should keep in mind if their guidance, it’s all of their creators is like, you should really join the union. They want to feel equipped to be able to support that. How can they do that? Well, before 

[00:43:03] Shaine Griffin: we get into that, I want to invite anyone to always reach out, right?

[00:43:06] Shaine Griffin: Like if you have a certain situation or just like want to delve into your particular case or your client roster more, like I’m always happy to be a resource. But a few things that come to mind as to what they should always be aware of is one is if the partnership is with an advertiser or ad agency that’s already signatory to the SAG AFTRA commercials contract.

[00:43:29] Shaine Griffin: There’s really nothing they have to do, but they should be mindful it’s gonna be disclosed to them. 

[00:43:34] Jessy Grossman: So it’s gonna say, and maybe we should take a beat. I probably should have had you say this earlier, but like, can you explain briefly like what a signatory is? Yeah. I think there are probably some people who are like, she, they, we keep, they keep talking about that.

[00:43:46] Jessy Grossman: What is that word? . 

[00:43:48] Shaine Griffin: No, thank you so much for jumping in there. No. So a signatory is basically. We sign advertisers and ad agencies who have agreed to follow the terms and conditions of our collective bargaining agreement. Every three years, we negotiate with them, um, with the joint policy committee, which is comprised of advertisers and ad agencies.

[00:44:09] Shaine Griffin: And basically, they’re just agreeing to do all their stuff union. Right. And so when a creator is working with a big company, that work would be covered under the influencer waiver and that should be disclosed. And so I think a lot of times folks are a little blindsided being like, wait, this is a union project.

[00:44:27] Shaine Griffin: My person’s not union. It doesn’t matter as when there is a signatory advertiser, ad agency involved, regardless of whether the talent is union or non union, it’s going to be a union project. Right. And they 

[00:44:40] Jessy Grossman: can still work on it. Is what you’re saying as well. Yeah. 

[00:44:43] Shaine Griffin: Okay. Absolutely. Work on it. They will be made eligible to join through their work on it, but they don’t have to join in order to work on it at that point, right?

[00:44:55] Shaine Griffin: They’re going to have a small percentage contributed to pension and health on their behalf. So that’s something to think about, especially for folks if they’re working under this space more and more. Why not access those benefits right that are already being put away for you and work towards that. So that’s something just to keep in mind.

[00:45:17] Shaine Griffin: But anyways, that’ll be disclosed for talent managers who are working with talent for coverage under the influencer agreement. They should make sure that the ownership language is in the contract. Right. But they’re licensing it back for a duration of time, not in perpetuity, because I’ll be like, no, in perpetuity, that the usage is pretty contained to social media and the brand’s website, if they want to do like an email distribution to their opt in subscribers, that’s fine, but it’s not going to live on like.

[00:45:52] Shaine Griffin: Hulu or, um, gas stations. I’m seeing a lot of that 

[00:45:56] Jessy Grossman: because your position is that should just cost more. Yeah. Right. Got it. I’m going to make sure I understand why. Okay. And 

[00:46:02] Shaine Griffin: it should be covered under one of our agreements that’s just a little bit more robust in terms of the protections in terms of like.

[00:46:10] Shaine Griffin: Maximum period of use and the option to renegotiate and all those things. We just feel like they warrant a little bit more oversight. 

[00:46:19] Jessy Grossman: And there are different agreements that you guys have negotiated when you say like every three years you renegotiate things like these are just these are different agreements because they’re different scenarios, right?

[00:46:28] Shaine Griffin: Mm hmm. 

[00:46:28] Jessy Grossman: Got it. 

[00:46:29] Shaine Griffin: Yeah, exactly. So I always say, like, the usage rights should just be really clear and spelled out appropriately. The ownership, and then just the deliverables have some kind of video component if it’s gonna go under the SAG AFTRA Influencer Agreement. If it’s just data carousel, that’s not our jurisdiction.

[00:46:46] Shaine Griffin: We don’t cover print, but if it’s static images, plus a Instagram reel or a Tik TOK video, then that’s something that can be covered under the influencer agreement. So got it. 

[00:46:58] Jessy Grossman: So we’re talking about like even Instagram stories, live streams, anything like that. Got it. What about like an in person like appearance, something like that?

[00:47:08] Jessy Grossman: Does that count? Generally not, 

[00:47:10] Shaine Griffin: but like when in doubt come to us, cause if there’s like behind the scenes or anything like we want to be. Able to just provide folks with the tools to navigate accordingly. So I always say like, there’s no stupid questions. We hear it all, but, like, give us the opportunity to help us help you, and you don’t have to ever disclose, like, who it’s with, or, like, the details of it, you can literally just come to us with a hypothetical, and we can be like, well, for this hypothetical, it would be this, just because we think we should all be on the same page.

[00:47:41] Shaine Griffin: Got 

[00:47:42] Jessy Grossman: it. I love that. Okay. This is really helpful for like managers to understand. Is there any other like tips or tricks that you would give to managers just so they feel like they’re, they’re looked at as they need to know all the most amount of information to just be able to provide, like to guide their creators best.

[00:48:00] Jessy Grossman: So anything that you can share with them to help prepare them better. 

[00:48:04] Shaine Griffin: So I will just give a shout out to managers because I love working with talent managers in particular. Thank you. Because they see the long game in a way that is really special. But I think I want to invite folks if they are looking to ever cover something under the influencer agreement before they fully execute the contract, I am so happy to look over the agreement and be like, Hey, this is going to work or hate this one word is going to be an issue.

[00:48:35] Shaine Griffin: And it’s just something that I think as people get their feet wet. In the space is a really great thing that we can do together because it saves the headache of having to seek an amendment or for us to be like, I’m so sorry, we can’t cover this. And then the talent is upset because they wanted to maybe qualify for their benefits for that quarter.

[00:48:56] Shaine Griffin: Right. And now they can’t. So, like, I say all that and just use us as a resource. Like, we really are here to help. It’s not a gotcha situation. It’s like, let’s figure this out together. 

[00:49:08] Jessy Grossman: So I love that. And so, okay. So managers can reach out and that’s awesome for them to know about. And so we were talking about earlier, like if there’s a creator, an influencer who is asked to work on a union job, but they’re not union yet, but they can still work on it.

[00:49:27] Jessy Grossman: And I’d love to talk about, I guess that like transitional process of like, when they can join, maybe when they should join and just like what, That looks like, cause that I’m sure that’s like a missed, like, I would love to demystify a little bit. 

[00:49:44] Shaine Griffin: Yeah. And I think that’s what a lot of folks get the most frustrated by in full transparency.

[00:49:50] Shaine Griffin: Cause they’re just like, I don’t know. Right. And again, to my earlier point, there’s not a one size fits all for every creator, every talent as to when to join the union and when it’s the right time. But when someone is non union and they’re hired under a union, Production because like, it’s a sack after signatory.

[00:50:10] Shaine Griffin: So it’s a union production. Technically there are taft Hartley, meaning that they’re made eligible to join the union. So at that point in time, they can join now, whether or not they feel ready to join is a different story. But at that point, I think it behooves everyone involved to just start reaching out to us and being like, well, what does it mean?

[00:50:29] Shaine Griffin: And I’m based in LA versus based in like Idaho is going to mean something different. Yeah. Right. 

[00:50:36] Jessy Grossman: So can we like maybe paint a picture of like the no brainer, like if you fit this SPAC like you are way more, you’ll get the most benefits, like it’s just like a no brainer for you to join. Can we start there maybe?

[00:50:48] Jessy Grossman: I think the no brainer 

[00:50:50] Shaine Griffin: to join, there’s two that come to immediate attention. Mind. One is if talent are looking to evolve into other areas of entertainment, right? It’s a no brainer. You want to join because everything traditional in entertainment is covered by SAG AFTRA, right? And it’s going to give them the opportunity to go out and audition with other SAG AFTRA members and all that stuff.

[00:51:13] Shaine Griffin: So I think that’s something no brainer. For folks who are maybe not pursuing that traditional element, I would say if they’re consistently working under union agreements, they’re being hired under union agreements. That is. I think something they should take very seriously in that, Hey, I can do this. Like I keep getting called in for union projects and they’re contributing on my behalf into my plans.

[00:51:43] Shaine Griffin: I should really strongly look into becoming a member at that point, because why not, like they’re consistently working in this space and now with the influencer agreement on top of that. Being with that flexibility, they should really start considering it. Got it. And 

[00:51:59] Jessy Grossman: so then they’re convinced and they’re like, all right, I want to join this site.

[00:52:06] Jessy Grossman: It makes sense. It sounds like a great benefit for me. What are the fees to join? And like, is it a long process? Like, what does it look like AFTRA. Yeah, so 

[00:52:19] Shaine Griffin: once they are eligible to join, there is an initiation fee. It’s a one time initiation fee, and it depends on where they’re located, where they’re living and working.

[00:52:27] Shaine Griffin: So in the major markets like New York and LA, the initiation fee is 3, 000. So it’s not nothing, but it’s one time. Right. If they are located in one of our midsize or smaller markets, it’s going to be, it’s going to be less. Right. And I can’t give you like what it is in each because we have so many different mids and smalls, but they can always reach out and I can happily let them know.

[00:52:50] Shaine Griffin: But that’s a one time thing now in terms of dues, which help the functioning of the union, meaning that’s what’s supplying our legal team with their salaries, right? It’s helping us negotiate these contracts and all those things. So in terms of their dues, basically it is less than 2 percent of their union covered earnings.

[00:53:10] Shaine Griffin: So, and that’s paid twice a year. So that’s something to consider. But again, that helps the functioning of the union. Make sure that we’re able to legislate on behalf of our member body, which is something that I think a lot of creators should also be very mindful of as a space evolve, you know, we’re a member run organization.

[00:53:29] Shaine Griffin: So as more creators become part of this community, their voices will get louder. In terms of what they think we should focus on, and I think that’s really getting increasingly important in this space in particular, 

[00:53:43] Jessy Grossman: and if you were to say, like, based on the feedback that you’ve gotten, and you know, the probably like a good amount of creators who have joined and just, you know, you’ve been in conversation with.

[00:53:53] Jessy Grossman: What would your goal be for your road map of like how you guys can help improve the creator economy? 

[00:54:02] Shaine Griffin: I mean, I think we touched on it a little bit before. I want everyone to recognize their collective power. In shaping the trajectory of the space, right? And I constantly hear these horror stories to your point about like people not getting paid or taking advantage of or agreeing to things that they didn’t necessarily know they were agreeing to.

[00:54:27] Shaine Griffin: And I would ultimately love to see. The, this ecosystem get healthier, get stronger. I don’t think it’s going anywhere, but I think there should be fences, rules to the road so that everyone can continue growing and thriving and not undercutting each other or themselves in the process. I think that’s really important.

[00:54:48] Shaine Griffin: She is just the health of this space. So as much as we can be a partner in that, that’s my dream, but I think it’s a collaborative effort, but I really hope that we are. A strong part of that process. 

[00:55:01] Jessy Grossman: Well, I think it’s just, I think it’s like you either buy into the idea that like, as a collective member led organization, we can all help each other or you’re just not, that just sounds so foreign to you and it’s not something that you’re interested in.

[00:55:16] Jessy Grossman: And like, it’s nothing in this world is for everybody, right? But I think like, I mean, I have a member led organization as well. And I see that in my own work. So like I’m more bought in than not for sure. I literally do this similar work, right? Like, so I see the power in numbers. I see the power in combining your efforts and that change is absolutely possible with doing so.

[00:55:41] Shaine Griffin: Well, and information 

[00:55:42] Jessy Grossman: sharing, 

[00:55:43] Shaine Griffin: right. Which is what you guys do so masterfully too. Is just how do we become stronger through just communication too and sharing what we know and how do we help each 

[00:55:53] Jessy Grossman: other just grow and just being in conversation, like just being the person to spearhead. This is an issue that’s going on.

[00:56:01] Jessy Grossman: Can we just discuss it? And the more voices that contribute, not all the time, but most of the time, like you’ll come up with more solutions sometimes. Just chaos in there. There’s good and bad and everything. Right. But like, I appreciate that a lot. So I think I want to make sure to get to a couple last questions that we got in from our members before we wrap.

[00:56:25] Jessy Grossman: So the question that came in from a member is where can we find a list of brands and agencies that are SAG signatories? And I will add to that question, like. Where can people just find, like, are there resources on your website? Or, you know, you keep saying, like, contact you. I always think about, like, what’s the scalability of that if I tell all of our hundreds of members to contact you?

[00:56:46] Jessy Grossman: I don’t want to do that to you. So, like, if people just want to learn more and get these questions answered, is, you know, uh, where can they navigate to your website? Specifically to this person’s question, is there a list of brands and agencies that are SAG signatories? 

[00:57:01] Shaine Griffin: So there is a list. It is not publicly available, unfortunately.

[00:57:05] Shaine Griffin: So I’m so sorry to let everyone know that we can’t ask that. That said, and this is to your point, Jesse, like you don’t want to refer everyone to me, but they should. If they have particular questions about certain brand partners or agencies, you can also ask the agency or the brand, Hey, are you a SAG AFTRA signatory?

[00:57:26] Shaine Griffin: They should know the answer to that. But in terms of our website, people are more than welcome to go to our website. There are so many resources. In. Particular to the influencer space. There is a page built specific to this community. So it’s under influencer resources, and that’s where you can read more about the influencer waiver, the influencer agreement.

[00:57:51] Shaine Griffin: What I really appreciate is that we built a pension and health contributions calculator that is publicly available. So if you are kind of trying to navigate how much would pension and health contributions be for this project, if it went union. You can literally like plug in the talent fee and it’ll spit out the number for you because no one wants to do that.

[00:58:13] Shaine Griffin: So we made it easy and I think people are pleasantly surprised like it’s really that little. So that’s there the document that I referenced about like the things that we recommend always be in a talent agreement. Please check that out. And then again, they can reach out. And if it’s not me, if I am overwhelmed, like there’s so many other folks that I work with that are also totally equipped to answer questions.

[00:58:40] Shaine Griffin: So 

[00:58:40] Jessy Grossman: awesome. I appreciate that. And I’m just trying to protect your time, but you’re still saying like, no, guys, reach out. It’s fine. I love that about you. I appreciate that about you. And I certainly don’t want to get in the way of that. So. People reach out to Jane. She’s I’m going to regret it. I know what you might, but I know that the people reaching out won’t because they’re having direct access to you.

[00:58:59] Jessy Grossman: And I’m sure they agree, right? No, right. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I mean, it’s just not what most people experience, but if you guys are offering that, then Fantastic. Right. I think there’s one more question that we got in. I found this one was pretty interesting. So after a Taft Hartley that you were talking about earlier, if the talent doesn’t join within the time period that they’re allowed, Do they have the opportunity to join at a later date?

[00:59:28] Jessy Grossman: Or is it sort of like, you gotta, you know, do it now or opportunity? 

[00:59:34] Shaine Griffin: No, they have some flexibility as to when they want to join. Now there’s some things that might speed up that process in terms of the frequency that they’re working on union projects, especially in the more traditional spaces, but in terms of whether or not their eligibility ever expires.

[00:59:52] Shaine Griffin: No. So I think that’s something that’s really important to keep in mind. What I do recommend for anyone who is looking to join SAG AFTRA is keep all your paperwork too. That’s something that a lot of folks don’t necessarily do and then they come to us with things that they want to use towards their eligibility that it gets a little messy if you can’t find.

[01:00:19] Shaine Griffin: Thanks. So keep paperwork, 

[01:00:21] Jessy Grossman: keep paperwork, keep organized, keep in touch, keep all of these things. And I think like, I appreciate that you guys seem also very open from my estimation in to feedback, because it seems like you guys are just motivated to have this work and to learn about. You know, the nuances of this similar, but different industry.

[01:00:41] Jessy Grossman: And so I really appreciate that about you. And I’ve always gotten that by from you. So that was one of the many reasons that I wanted to have you on today to catch up, to share information, to get some of our members questions answered. And I just appreciate you coming on today. Any parting words for people who are listening, we know they can reach out and we’ll link in the show notes how best to reach out, but any parting words for anybody who’s tuning in today?

[01:01:07] Jessy Grossman: I just want to 

[01:01:07] Shaine Griffin: thank everyone for tuning in, listening, bearing with any of the more nitty gritty details. But I also just want to give a huge shout out to you, Jesse, for Everything you do, everything that you’re building and just bringing people together for conversations that are really important. So thank you.

[01:01:26] Jessy Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. They’re important conversations that we have to have. And you know, this conversation, even like, sure. I always love catching up with you, but it was one of our members who reached out and she was like, I just want to feel, she’s like, I don’t feel like I know enough and I want to know more and I want to fully understand it.

[01:01:43] Jessy Grossman: And I appreciate your willingness to come on and, Answer all the questions. And I think that that’s just like, that’s how we come up with solutions. Like that’s how, that’s how we get to the finish line. That’s how we come up with solutions. That’s how we get shit done. So I just appreciate you and your willingness to do that.

[01:01:59] Jessy Grossman: Not everybody is. So thank you for coming today. Again, we’ll link Shane’s information in the show notes so that if you do have questions, and I’m sure many of you do to reach out, whether you’re a creator, a manager. Agency, brands, anything. She could be such a resource for you guys. So thank you again for coming on today.

[01:02:19] Jessy Grossman: Thank you guys for listening and we will see you next week. Hi everyone. If you enjoyed this episode, we got to have you back. Check out our website for more ways to get involved, including all the information you need about joining our collective. You can check out all the information at I am wiim. com.

[01:02:38] Jessy Grossman: Leave us a review, a rating. But the most important thing that we can ask you to do is to share this podcast. Thanks for listening. Tune in next week.