Can you trust management?

Jessy: Hey guys, what’s going on? This is Jessy Grossman, your host of The WIIM Podcast. So many of you listen though on a fairly regular basis, so I feel like it’s like silly to say that. But some of you might be new. So if you are, what’s up? My name is Jessy Grossman. This is so awkward. Anyways, you guys, it wouldn’t be another WIIM Podcast if it wasn’t some awkward moment, um, included.

 Yours truly is bringing it to you. Um, so we have a really cool episode today. We just finished recording, um, with Megan Frantz of Whalar. So she’s a talent manager. she has a cool tech background, uh, but she has been in the industry for like 10-plus years doing really awesome work. And so I was really excited to have her on the podcast.

And the last time I sort of like saw her, um, she was also speaking at VidCon and I don’t know, I was like, ah, I gotta get her on the podcast. I gotta get her on the podcast. So anyways, it was a few months, I guess, a few months after VidCon, but we got her on.

I’m very excited to have her today. But before we get into that, I just want to confide in you guys. so I just got back from vacation. and I have like the wildest story like the wildest thing that happened to me. you might think I’m crazy. So we went to, uh, the Bahamas. It was beautiful. I had actually never been before, which is kind of surprising because I grew up in Miami, which is like a hop skip away, but I don’t know.

My parents didn’t think I deserved nice things as a child. Um, so we decided to take a vacation, Paul, myself, and Zoe, who we refer to ourselves as PJZ, and we went to the Bahamas for like a week for summer vacation, and like, guys, it was amazing. Really beautiful. none of us had ever been there before, so we were like, all right, like, where do we stay?

Like we book stuff. So last minute, you guys, for any of you guys who are planners, my family would give you so much anxiety. We booked this trip probably two and a half weeks before we left. Um, but we ended up deciding on Paradise Island in Nassau, and we stayed at Atlantis. Now, I remember Atlantis from like 25 years ago when it first launched and they had tons of commercials on TV.

And again, maybe that’s because of where I grew up in Miami because we were so close and we’re probably like the target demo of like, come from Miami, take a nice trip, go to the Bahamas. But anyway, I just remember all these. like commercials. And so when I got there, I was like, Oh my God, it looks just like the commercials.

That is wild. It was really beautiful. We stayed at the reef and they have like, I think six or seven different hotel variations that are all part of Atlantis, but it’s a really good place if you’re looking for like a family spot. It’s nice if you’re just going For, uh, like an adult-only type trip, but I would recommend staying at the Cove because they have an adult-only pool there.

Otherwise, like, I would say that it’s mostly for families. I don’t know that that would be my number one to go if I was an adult. In fact, I heard As if I was just looking for an adult trip, I mean, but in fact what I heard is that Bahamar, which is newer, has a better casino, and better restaurants.

I didn’t go there, I’ve only heard stuff and watched a ton of YouTube videos about it. That’s how we decide on where to go on vacation. but yeah, I would look into both of them. Regardless, the water in the Bahamas is like the most crystal clear blue water I think I’ve ever seen. And, uh, you know, they say the water, the ocean is just so beautiful in Miami.

I’m telling you, I grew up there, born and raised, only to go to college. I was there my whole life. It does not compare to the Bahamas, in any way, shape, or form. It was beautiful. But the story that I was sort of alluding to when I, The start of this conversation. we very last minute in true, you know, Hershorn Grossman fashion, we ended up, um, very last minute booking like an excursion.

And, you know, there are a ton of different ways you could do it. You could do it by plane, or by boat. You can go to Xuma, you can go to Rose Island, but, the influencer one, I’m using that in air quotes, like the one that you’ve probably all seen, is where you swim with the pigs. So, Zoe is 7, and we all wanted to swim, I’m not even going to pin this on her like we all decided that we wanted to do the pig swimming thing and the other stuff like the snorkeling and the whatever but like the pig thing we really wanted to do.

However, I will preface it with this, I think the older that I get, I don’t really like going to like, I don’t know, sometimes zoos weird me out, like SeaWorld weirds me out, swimming with the pigs, that even weirded me out. When I say weirded me out, I’m like, I don’t feel good about this. Like, I don’t like when animals are sort of like put in a position where they have to like perform for like, like for humans, and like, it makes me feel icky.

Like, maybe you know what I’m alluding, like, I’m not alluding to it. Like, maybe you know what I’m saying. Like, I’m really into animals. I’m, like, obsessed with my pets and I just don’t like the idea of, like, animals being mistreated, basically. So, We ended up going through and we did it and the weather was like the one day that the weather wasn’t awesome.

but we still weren’t going to be able to go. We just needed to wait for like some weather to pass cause weather passes really quickly down there. So we ended up ultimately taking the boat ride out to Rose Island to do the quick version of all this stuff. And we like it.

drove the boat up to the island and they’re like looking at their watches. I’m like, y’all are late. we did all this already earlier. All the pigs are like away and I’m like, Oh hell no. Like we went all this way and like, we’re paying like a good amount of money.

Like for someone who like doesn’t even really want this to happen. I’m like, I mean, I want this to happen though. Like we came here, let’s do this. And so they end up literally getting one little piglet that Zoe picked and bringing it out to the ocean so she can hang out with like one little piglet and we can all get some photos.

It was like really ridiculous. That’s like the behind-the-scenes, like Instagram versus reality, like, y’all, that’s what really happened. But the crazy part of the story is like, I don’t know why this guy started having this conversation with me, what triggered him, honestly don’t know.

I don’t know. But like. after we had done the whole swimming with the pigs, like. he just started talking to me and being like, you know, basically like everything’s going to be okay. And I’m like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? And he’s just going on, but like being very direct about it.

And he’s just like, you know, I know there’s a lot of stuff going on in your life right now, but like everything is going to be okay and it’s all going to work out. And like, you know, you’re so strong and dah, dah, dah. And I’m just like, What is happening right now, but like for some reason she’s very like not me I wasn’t in that moment being like really skeptical like who is this guy?

What is he even saying Oh my god. He obviously just like wants money for me or like what is happening? Like I don’t know I like that part of my brain like wasn’t active It was actually I was like listening to him. I was like Very open to getting to what he was to like hearing what he was getting at and he just went on and on that, everything was gonna be okay.

There’s obviously something going on in my life and blah blah blah and you guys This is so uncharacteristic of me. It’s me Paul, Zoe and like this guy and like our tour guide and I just started like Tearing up I swear to God I’m like contorting my face cuz I like hate crying in front like who likes crying in front of strangers So like I’m not unique in that way But I like contorting my face like trying not to cry and let it out and he’s like, you know I see tears in your eyes and I’m like mother Fucker.

I just, can’t hold back at that point. And I just started crying. it was just so, it was like a really wild experience. And then he like kept talking to us like about that. Everything’s going to be okay. As we were like, leaving two and we had already like paid the guy like we had already even like tipped the guy so like he didn’t have Incentive to I don’t know to make like a spectacle like a show that we feel like we have to like to tip him for Like this is the skeptical part of my brain like after the fact But I’m sort of like digesting what happened and trying to explain it and maybe there’s nothing to explain or maybe there’s nothing to type like to, to examine.

It was just this like really. Kind of bizarre, but like, kind of lovely experience where like, it was like a perfect stranger who somehow, some way picked up on the fact that I had a lot going on in my life. For those of you, I don’t think I’ve mentioned it on this podcast yet, maybe I did once briefly, but my mom passed away recently and it was very complicated, We had a very complicated relationship, and it, that had happened like.

the week before I left for the Bahamas. So it was just very much on my mind. And I, I don’t think I was like, had that like on my face, but whatever it was, he like, picked up on Something and called it out and I don’t know, it was actually like, it was really memorable I kind of wish more people did that.

I, you know, I had someone today, I was on a call and, you know, she was introduced to me by somebody else and, asked, to connect with me. And that person is more of a friend than anything else. And she was like, you know, I will, but like, I happen to know Jessy’s mom just recently passed.

So like now is probably not the perfect time. So anyways, that’s how she was privy to that information. And we had this conversation today on the phone and she was just like, you know, I’m so sorry that your mom passed. This is the first time I’ve spoken to this person. So like, you know, I didn’t even acknowledge it.

I was just sort of like, parlayed it into something else. it’s really hard to talk about. it’s probably not going to be something that I’m going to talk about anytime soon on the show, only because I need to unpack it first.

But I guess like the point of telling the story is like, you know, regardless of where the conversation goes, I just want us all to be like a little bit more human. the days that I’m like turned off by influencer marketing and like all this stuff that we’re just like doing all the time and the like parts of me just get like a little sick of it.

But sometimes if I’m being so honest, I’m certainly not the one who’s like, I love influencer marketing all day, every day. It’s usually when everything just seems so stupidly transactional and so simple-minded and like people are just using each other and like, I just hate that. I hate all of that.

So I have this experience in the Bahamas where. This guy just like really freaking went there with me and he just seemed so compassionate and he seemed so like knowledgeable about life in the world and like I don’t know what happened there and why he decided to like Say this to me on that day. ’cause I didn’t know him, but I’m kind of glad that he did and it stuck with me, obviously, and I’m still thinking about it.

And it’s been like a week and a half, maybe even two weeks, like since we got back. And I would just like to encourage you guys. I don’t know. Take a beat. Like, end your days a little earlier. Start your days a little later. Take a slightly longer lunch. Connect with someone on, you know, for a few more minutes than you normally would.

Like, I just want people to be more human And if we can all do that, I just think that our industry will be the better for it That was a long intro and a long conversation. But uh, I don’t know. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope they took something from it anyway, I hope you guys stick around it was a really good chat really good conversation I look forward to you guys hearing it.

So without further ado, here’s Megan.

Jessy: Megan, I’m super excited to have you on today. And how’s life? 

Megan: Life is good. Where, towards the end of summer morning and a little bit, but have some travel coming up. So that’s always exciting.

Jessy: Where are you headed? Anywhere fun? Anywhere exciting? 

Megan: My family and I are going up to see a ranch in northern California. If you’ve ever heard of it, it’s like a hippie commune that was built by Berkeley architects in the 70s and 80s. So it’s like all these really cool beach houses that are super funky right on the coast. Yeah.

Jessy: Have you been before? 

Megan: Have a few times. Yeah, my husband and I have gone a few times. It’s just like where his family would go every year when they were growing up. My parents haven’t been since my siblings and I were itty bitties. So it’s a reunion for my side of the family. 

Jessy: That’s awesome. Are you going for a good long chunk? Do you feel like you get enough vacation time to actually enjoy yourself and be present? 

Megan: With management, it’s tricky because it’s a bit of an always-on job and I love the job. So I struggle to disconnect. And with work from home and remote working it’s so easy to just post up at a beach house and be like, I’m working.

But I will say my husband and I got married about a year ago and we went on our honeymoon, It was about two-ish weeks, a little over two weeks and I was fully disconnected.

And that was the first time I had taken such a long vacation and like disconnected and it was great. I came back to a thousand emails, but it was all worth it.

Jessy: So was it though? So I have a ton of anxiety. I’m, like, riddled with it. Personally, I just struggle with taking vacations. I want to say that, it’s totally worth it. It’s totally necessary and everybody should be doing it. But what you last said, I can totally relate to so hard, which is like you go and you’re like, if you can actually truly disconnect, like then you do ultimately come back to literally a thousand emails.

When I was in management, I had more emails in my inbox than I could ever even imagine. How do you really manage that? And is it just it is what it is and I’ll sort through them as I get back? Or do you struggle with that ever?

Megan: Yeah, I’ve been doing a version of this job for a little over a decade and I’ve learned a few things. Which is like, the more work you do, the more work it produces.

And everything feels like an emergency in the moment, but it’s really not when you like, pull back and think about the priorities of life. And I think post-COVID is putting it all in perspective too. I’m really fortunate at a company like Whalar where quite a large company and the talent management team, all work really closely together, which I think is a little bit atypical for management. Oftentimes I think it’s siloed, you’re running your own independent business under a banner.

However, I share a number of clients with an incredible manager at Whalar. And, we have like junior managers and assistants who can come in and support when we’re out. So knowing that we have such a capable team also made it great as well.

I’m very intense about protecting my personal clients and the relationship that I have with them, but there’s no one at Whalar that I would be like, they can’t handle taking over my client communications. I really trust everyone that I work with. So that helps as well as finding a great team to surround yourself with.

Jessy: So there are so many management companies out there and I would venture to say they all have different styles of running their agency, managing clients, etc. What do you think has been, if you could articulate the secret sauce of what makes Whalar like a really well-oiled machine? I’m curious because you know something that you said briefly before is, we share clients and I have not really heard of many other agencies doing that. So are there any other things that come to mind that sort of is a different experience for you having been in this all for a decade? 

Megan: Whalar’s one of the first companies I work at where they talk about being creator first and they truly are like when push comes to shove and they love all of the creators that we work with and there’s like an earnest support there. It’s an incredible leadership team.

 I think so many amazing companies and struggling companies really start at the top. That’s where the culture starts. And we’re very fortunate with our executive team with the president of Whalar Talent, Victoria Bashan.

And she runs a really great team that’s like the perfect combination of having all the resources we need to support our jobs and our clients, but still having the freedom and independence to do the job how we want and not be micromanaging us.

And Whalar, I think is really unique in the space in that we have our fingers, in all these different areas. We have a talent management team, which is small, but mighty. And we also have a brand agency team that’s much larger. It’s also global. We have a platform team that builds a lot of tech for us, which I think is very, typical for a management company to have a built-in platform team to build tools that we can use to make our job better.

We have a web-through innovation hub. We have a team that’s helping our clients develop their own businesses like product lines. So thinking outside of the merged print on demand and thinking about D2C like a matcha tea brand or a lifestyle brand or a fashion brand, really what those things look like that are a little bit more, heavy-handed and require more support than we’ve seen for traditional kind of product lines in the space. 

So we have really always been a little bit ahead of the curve in that sense. In terms of how the creator economy has evolved, they’ve really evolved the business as well.

Jessy: I love that. It’s really good to know. I just feel like not enough people compare notes and or even just know what other people are experiencing at other companies, whether you’re like a manager, brand agency, or what have you. So it’s cool to just understand what’s working from your perspective and like the inner workings of your team dynamic and stuff like that. Just like even the structure. So I think that’s really interesting.

I want to start a little bit more by just learning more about you. I think our, like our listeners really appreciate and like love to just get to know you a little bit better. So I’m curious, like outside of work, you talked about going on a vacation, but like even on a day-to-day, if you’re like, okay, it’s like, a random Saturday and I really just want to escape from work for a day or I want to cut work at 5 p. m. and spend the rest of my afternoon doing fill in the blank. What is that for you that really like you genuinely enjoy it as a nice escape from work? 

Megan: Yeah, as I get older, they’re looking less glamorous, less like going to happy hours and drinking and partying with friends, although I did that in my twenties. Now, in my mid-thirties, it’s more like taking a tennis camp or playing pickleball and going for a bike ride. 

Yeah, I’m very fortunate to live in California, and the weather is so temperate and so great. And I grew up here. So it’s definitely not lost on me of like, how fortunate we are to live where we live. Really doing anything outdoors is amazing. Yeah, I would say those are the 3 big things. Definitely, I think I got into pickleball before it like became really popular. I’ve been playing it for a few years.

Now it’s the fastest-growing, most popular sport in America. So I probably sound really basic, but it’s so fun. If anyone hasn’t played, it’s like ping pong and tennis made a baby and it’s way easier than tennis.

Jessy: You answered my question so my aunt and uncle play pickleball And I was and they’re like they like just recently retired and I’ve certainly seen in my neighborhood like Pickleball, like pop like signs even for it like popping up and I’m like, okay, this is like a thing It sounds silly. It’s like the silliest name, but like I wanted to know what it was a combination of so you said ping pong and tennis. Is that what you said? 

Megan: Because it’s like a wooden, like a bigger wooden panel, like ping pong, and then it’s a waffle ball, but it’s on a tennis court. It’s half the size of a tennis court, and the rules are somewhat similar to tennis. You can play singles or doubles… 

Jessy: How did you learn, how did you learn about it if you’re like you’ve been doing it for longer than it’s been like a trend, like, how did you first hear about it?

Megan: A good question. I think it came out right when lockdown opened up after COVID, like looking to do something and I hadn’t played tennis before. I think the barrier for entry for tennis is a little bit high. It’s so technical, but there are a lot of pick-up ball courts around where my husband and I live.

So we just started casually playing and became a bit addicted in that sense. And recruited a bunch of family and friends to play. Yeah, it’s a lot easier while still being challenging, which I find is like the perfect combination of a hobby in your thirties, where I want it to be fun, but I still want to be able to learn.

I don’t want to be bad at it. When I started, I was a Libra, I had control issues. But there are still areas of opportunity to learn. So it’s that good combination. For like I get frustrated with like golf or tennis that are so technical. 

Jessy: I do. And so I really enjoy also learning about people’s signs. So like, how else, what are other ways that you are like a true Libra? What are other descriptors? 

Megan: My big three are Libra, I’m a Virgo rising, and then Taurus is my last. And so I think like those three are definitely like to a T very me. So like Virgo rising and very type a, I think it’s what makes me really good at my job and very OCD. And I never forget anything ever. And I have like multiple systems and multiple yeah.

Pieces of tech that I use to keep myself organized and people at Whalar make fun of me for it all the time, but it’s very crucial that I feel as organized and as optimized as possible. So that’s very much the Virgo piece. 

The Libra piece, it’s the scale. So we’re all about balance and I find myself in that in-between in a lot of ways with my job and my life and my friendships and all of that, like striking that balance all the time.

The Taurus is very much like Tauruses typically like homebodies. So I even find the Libra-Taurus connection interesting because I am a homebody. I’m very introverted, but also I feel this sense of not like guilt, just I need a balance between I need to earn my time at home by going out and being social and seeing my friends so that I can earn being a homebody. If that makes sense. 

Jessy: No, it does make sense. I hear that. Ugh, I don’t know why I get anxious when you mentioned that last part earning it. Feel like a lot of us probably can relate to that. And it’s like, why do you have to earn it? Do you have to earn, it’s like why do we do this to ourselves?

Megan: It’s the weird thing with working from home, too. I feel this weird sense that I need to go out and use up my social battery in order to deserve rest. There are probably some things I can work through in therapy there, but I enjoy recuperating and resting at home more when I feel like I’ve gone out and really made myself tired versus I’m already tired from the week of being at home. And then I just parlay that into staying at home. I feel like more of a couch potato and that happens.

Jessy: I feel you on that. When it comes to guys to guests being in management and like what makes you good at your job maybe your coworkers occasionally make fun of you for it as you’re like a type a, like very organized, like utilizing tech. 

What else do you think as a manager? What sets you apart maybe from other talent managers you’ve come across? 

Megan: Yeah, I have the really fortunate perspective, and a number of managers that Whalar including Victoria is this way as well. We’ve been in the industry for so long. I started out in TV, more traditional, but I flipped over to the creator side, the creator economy before it was even called that in like 2012, or 2013.

Having that experience of having seen the industry evolve over that time and also just seeing the creator perspective, like I’ve worked really closely with creators in that time, whether or not in management like in more partnership style roles. And I’ve seen so many of them like burnout or struggle to evolve their business or find the right team to work with.

So I think having that perspective has been incredibly helpful. I always joke that ultimately management is, a middleman job and you do have to be organized and you do need relationships, but we all have the same relationships. We’re all working with the same brands and agencies, so you really can’t necessarily like it. promise more than the next manager. 

It’s so much more about like chemistry and finding clients that like click with you. But I think the thing that kind of sets me apart is being able to advise my clients of let’s protect your mental health. Let’s protect you from burning out. Let’s think about your business strategically in the next five years.

Cause I’ve seen multiple creators and their businesses evolve over five years. So I have a sense of what that should look like in order to be successful in order to accomplish your goals. So I think having that long-term perspective has been really great.

Jessy: I’ve been privy to a few recent conversations, It’s just like it’s happened in a couple of different scenarios and it’s made me think. The conversations have been about that they’re in these people’s opinions, and they’re not here to speak for themselves, but I’ll recap as best I can. 

But their opinion is that management is, they’re almost insinuating that like managers can be predatory. Managers don’t necessarily add to, the equation. Like they don’t give as much as they’re taking, like things like that.

Disclosure I have been a talent manager. I like to sell my agency. So of course I have a certain slant and I’m sure you do too. But I also remember the days when I was like pitching talent to work with, and I would say at least 7 out of 10 times, maybe 5, maybe 10 times. A lot of them would tell me these stories about how they worked with someone before, they’ve had this terrible experience, and I was like, huh, it’s interesting, I feel like I’m not only forced to pitch myself, but I’m forced to like, apologize for the wrongs of other managers that I have never met, didn’t know, but these creators have experienced.

I’m curious if you have experienced that yourself and I don’t know if there’s like a particularly wild story that you can relay to Oh my god, this influencer had gone through that, or you hear most influencers have experienced this, like what you’re up against and how you combat that? 

Megan: Yeah, it’s really tough. I would say that’s something we’ve seen, a rise in prevalence over the last few years. The creator economy has exploded, but I think the thing that comes with that is bad actors realizing there’s money to be made in this industry. And figuring if they buy a URL, say that they’re CEO of a company, they’re a talent manager, and start going after talent who don’t know any better that they can do the job.

And you’re totally right. It’s a really tough reputation. Us managers who have been doing the job for a while who work for large companies, we’re like, we’re held to a certain standard of work, that we’re like up against. And oftentimes it feels like we’re helping creators who want to work with us, like work through past trauma of other bad actors, like bad managers who took advantage of them.

 So often I’m so transparent when I’m meeting with potential clients where I’m like, you can speak to any of the creators. I currently work with you and can speak with creators. I no longer work with so you can hear like, why we parted ways that happens in management as well. It’s not always a bad thing.

And I think it’s important that creators do their due diligence and recognize that it’s like adding on COO to your business. Like it’s a really big deal and you need to know who you’re going into business for. And, people can promise the world and talk a big game and say that they represent people that they don’t officially represent, maybe they sold a couple of brand deals and now they’re calling themselves that creator’s manager.

 I really encourage creators to do their due diligence, get references, and get referrals to managers that your creators trust. In terms of horror stories, we’ve heard creators come to us where managers convince them to give them more than the industry standard, which is 20%.

Or convince them to like, pay off a flat fee, like a retainer model, which is also not okay. Managers that like to promise these things they’re unable to follow through or they’ll hear a creator will get back from a brand that they had a terrible time working with their manager. And because of that, the brand didn’t want to work with them again, which, ultimately a manager is an extension of your business.

They’re literally representing you. Although someone might talk about being a shark and getting you the best deal, you need to think about those conversations they’re having on your behalf. From the brand and agency’s perspective, they think that everything a manager is saying has been vetted and approved by the creator.

So whether or not, like how your manager is treating other people like I’m very much of the camp of killing them with kindness. The best brand is a renewing brand, a renewing sponsor, and you never know where anyone is going to end up in this industry. I think that’s come with a lot of time as well.

There are people that when I was an assistant, they’re now like executives at studios and really important people. And I’ve always treated people with respect the way I want to be treated, and I’ve never looked down on anyone or tried to take advantage of someone because they have like seniority or leadership like I think that’s a huge thing as well there’s this weird feeling it almost feels like an entourage holdover that they need to be like pompous and they’re advocating for their clients by being super intense and like the bad cop and of course there’s aspects of that to the job, but ultimately you’re representing a creator and I take that so seriously so yeah.

Jessy: Yeah, I’m like, I don’t know, it’s interesting when you, think we’re about the same age and I remember, like the entourages of the world and like when, that was something to look up to and aspire to be in representation, whether you represent creators or actors or whatever.

It was just like, Hollywood is, there’s been like a real reckoning, I feel like we’ve all seen it in terms of the way that old Hollywood has been looked at and, it certainly as it transfers into, I think, Management of creators as well because it’s like that was the template of what it is to represent talent.

It seems like it’s good that we’re we can just sit here and be critical and all more or less agree these are the ways that we don’t want to be, but I wonder if there’s a good enough blueprint of what managers should be doing that’s really going to move the needle for our talent, the way to like really interact with talent.

 How to draw boundaries perhaps when boundaries need to be drawn to protect their mental health who do you look to or how do you establish your own guidelines for the best way to manage talent in the modern day, What do you look at as an example for yourself? 

Megan: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think it comes with older age and doing the job for a while where I’m very confident in my skills and I know a lot of people and have done, so much work and I have so much respect for creators, but I also oftentimes will have to like, when I’m having an intro meeting with someone who’s 19, they have 10 million followers.

They’ve never had a real job before. They don’t really understand how management works. I think oftentimes, especially if they’re coming off of the other bad management company, like this happens a lot where we have to teach them, how the job is supposed to be done and how we’re supposed to work together.

And that does require setting boundaries. I’m not interested and there’s no value for you to micromanage me. My job is to get you to trust me and understand, I’m literally incentivized to make your business successful. I’m incentivized to want brands to come back and work with us again and to make you look as best as I can.

So it’s oftentimes working through that kind of either past trauma of another manager or like just their sense of how it should be or them not understanding we’re not assistants where your partner’s in business. And we also represent a handful of clients. At Whalar we all represent between 8 to 15 creators.

So that, goes into boundary setting as well, where it’s, I’m not a full-time employee of yours. It’s that kind of dance where I want to go above and beyond the job to allow you to trust me. But also I believe in myself and my skills and I know I can do the job, that if I can’t like breakthrough if a creator is really struggling and is really trying to like to micromanage, then it’s that conversation where it’s like, it might not be a fit for me. 

That’s me personally. Maybe there are other managers who, don’t mind that. But I want to be able to have that solid trust with the client so that we can work together long-term and build something really great together. And if I can’t get them to do that, there’s only so much that I can do.

In terms of the types of clients I look at, I want to work with adults and that’s not even necessarily like an age thing. It’s like a mindset, like ideally someone who’s worked in customer service or worked a real job and like understands, what deadlines are oftentimes for having to teach creators, like that deadlines are a real thing and like brands are working on a really specific timeline. They need to get a budget spent within a certain timeframe.

And really teaching them how to professionalize their business. So creators that either understand that or are open to learning that is certainly something. I really want to work with a creator who has a strong point of view and a unique way of thinking about their content and isn’t just following trends.

I find that’s more interesting for me, like having worked with so many different creators at this point, like I. want someone who has a fresh and unique perspective and really loves doing it and isn’t just like following the thing they think is going to perform well, because I think, I’ve seen creators that follow trend to trend and they just burn out and they like lose their sense of self because they don’t even know what’s the type of content I like to make? You know what I mean? So that’s a big part of it as well.

I’m really fortunate that the creators I have now, are all incredible. They’re all very professional. They’re all like at the top of their game and very good at what they do. And I do not have to handhold them through like how to think about incorporating a brand into their content.

They can really do that on their own. I can be supportive in the sense of strategizing around their business, but they do not need a ton of handholding in terms of like why it is important that we hit a brand’s talking points or, what the metrics of success are for our brand deal. That makes sense.

Jessy: And so I love this conversation. I want to dive into it more because I feel like whether you’re like a creator and tuning into this or a manager and tuning into this, as both of those parties respectively want for there to just be a success in life in the influencer’s career, right? Because everyone’s benefiting from it in that case. 

So my question to you is are even more attributes that you can identify whether it’s your clients or your colleague’s clients you’re like dang, like this influencer is killing it. Like they are just you know, can like constantly getting buzzed, they’re like on the up and up, all their stats are growing, their partnerships are growing, like things are just really looking as if they are absolutely gonna be able to establish themselves as a long term, person in the creator economy. What are they doing? What are they doing right? 

Megan: Yeah, a number of my clients, I think, have a very similar approach to work that I do, which is why we work so well, which is they treat every single person with respect and they treat it really seriously when a brand is offering to pay them thousands of dollars. There’s no entitlement there.

They really understand that a brand only has so much budget and they’ve carved out some of it to work with me. What are the ways in which I can incorporate the brand to make them feel that their money is well spent and it’s going to perform well while still staying true to me?

Oftentimes we’re having that dance where we’re trying to help the brand understand the more creative freedom you can give a creator, the better the content will perform, but also on the creator side that a brand more often than not wants to hit the talk point, talking points about their brand that they care about and like wanting to represent their brand in the way that is important to them before performance of the content.

They would rather have a video that authentically represents their brand perfectly than a viral video that does nothing to talk about their brand and puts their brand in a life that they don’t want to be represented.

And oftentimes we have to coach creators between like thinking about organic content and brand and content a little differently in terms of those metrics of success. But, some of the most successful clients we have at Whalar have really nailed that. Like my client, Emmanuel Duverneau is a creator in the culinary space.

He treats every partnership with the utmost respect and is very much I will figure out a way to incorporate it while still staying true to me. He really puts them first and foremost, which I think brands really appreciate. And we often see them coming back because they enjoyed working with him so much.

Versus making it really difficult or like really having super strong boundaries in terms of not wanting to incorporate the brand at all. I respect creators who have such a strong, like personal brand that they want to, incorporate partnerships super authentically to them, but it’s a little bit of a give and a take, and I think taking that budget seriously and, respecting it, I think is a huge metrics of success and then, taking the relationship to the audience seriously and not half-assing the content and like identifying content.

I think people often don’t realize at least, a lot of the creators we represent are short-form creators, like on TikTok, and they’re making three, four, five videos a week. And you think about that in the context of the YouTube era, where they were making like maybe one a week. Some YouTubers are making two a month or one a month.

It’s such a different level of production and just like churning out constant creativity. I could never do it. I have so much respect for my clients who do, but they can do it because they’ve identified content, whether it be cooking or fitness or art, whatever it is that they’re so passionate about, that they will literally never want to run out of ideas.

They will always want to make new content and they love doing it. And it’s like the thing that they do all day, every day. I think that is so important. If it’s still a job and you want to, you have to be self-motivated to do this job. You’re an independent business owner. I’m not their boss. I can only work on their behalf if they want to work. So having that passion and self-motivation is so important. 

Jessy: And what do you say to those, like different parts of the equation? And so answer however you’d like, what do you say to either creators or even managers who are just like, I’m doing all these things, but I feel like I’m in a rat race and I’m getting burnt out. And I’m wondering like, what is the next step for me?

Like, maybe they’re just feeling stuck, they’re feeling stagnant or burnt out. What do you say first to the creators, and then I’m curious if you say anything different from what you say to managers. 

Megan: Yeah, for creators, we pull back and we remind them to think about coming from within in terms of the motivation and why they’re doing what they’re doing. I think some creators get stuck in this trap where they’re like the algorithm says that I should post this amount on this time every day, but I don’t have it in me to produce seven videos a week.

So like really pulling back and being like, you are like the arbiter of your business. You’re the one who likes to make the decisions here. And although of course, you want to be mindful of the algorithm, ultimately the most successful production schedule content for you is the content that you will want to make.

So really pulling back and reminding them of that, I think is important. Cause I think they get a little bit too in the weeds. And that can really pull them out of the creative and the reason they got into it in the first place. And then in terms of talking to other managers, ultimately we joke that half of this job is business coach, but the other half is business therapist.

So we are having a lot of conversations about, like, how we can help our clients take a vacation. Understand that if they change their posting schedule or if they don’t necessarily live and die by the algorithm they will be okay. We have over 10 years now of, records that like creators can build long-lasting businesses if they’re making the right decisions and if they’re in it for the right reasons.

So I think creators lose that perspective. So oftentimes, as managers, we’re having to have that conversation of how best to help them through those times and like how best to help them like set those boundaries and remind them that like why they got into this in the first place.

Jessy: And, like, how do you personally manage your day? So if part of the day you’re a business strategist and business coach, and then part of the day you’re a therapist and part of the day you need to build up relationships, maybe seek new talent. There are so many different segments to the job of a manager, I have so many opinions about that.

But basically to, reveal a little bit of that. I just, find it hard to think that one person can be exceptional at a million different skill sets. Nonetheless, most managers are looked at to do a million different things. So with that sort of expectation, and correct me if I’m wrong, maybe your creators don’t have that expectation of you, but if they, do and you are required or looked at or expected to do a number of different things, like how do you plan your week, your day?

Like when do you do certain things and like how do you literally go from one to the other? And do you schedule it out? Do you just respond to the fires that need to be responded to? Like how do you really organize your day and your week? 

Megan: Yeah, a lot of it is drinking from the fire hose. And honestly, I really like that about the job. I like every day that I’m like, waking up. I have no idea what’s on the docket that day. And like I said, I have a million tools that make it so that I will never forget an email, never forget a deadline.

Jessy: Can we pause because I would actually love to hear what some of your biggest tools you’re like Oh my god, if I didn’t have this tool, I wouldn’t be able to do my job 

Megan: Boomerang is probably the biggest one. It’s a Gmail add-on where you can basically make it, so every single email you send will automatically come back if you don’t get a response, or you can send it where it’s a brand is emailing us being like, hey, here are our notes. We need the revised content by Friday.

We can then schedule that email to come back on Friday and retouch my client being like, Hey, here are the notes we need by Friday and schedule that to come back Friday or even Thursday. And if we don’t see it by then we can be like. How’s it going? You know what I mean? It’s a lot of automation that makes it so that I can like nothing will fall through the cracks.

So boomerang is a big one. I have an integration with air table to project manage, like all of the deals I’m working on. So at any point, if a client calls me and they’re like, what are my deals? What are the deadlines? What am I working on? It’s very easy for me to pull up and be like, here are the 10 active deals. Here are the deadlines. Here’s the status for each of them. 

Another one that not many people know about is a company called Streak. It’s also a Gmail integration. You can track email opens, and link opens. You can mail merge, which I find to be super helpful. Like, when we have a new client, oftentimes I’ll send a mail merge to our agency partners being like, I recently signed with another manager at Whalar who is the first Mexican-born woman to go to space, which is incredibly exciting. 

And as we’re getting into Q4, that’s like a new client where we’re, sharing with our agency partners, like here’s this new client we have here, the areas of business where she can really slot in. So that’s been an amazing tool.

But yeah, in terms of like scheduling my day and boundaries and stuff like that, I often find from 7 a.m., 8 a.m. to 1 or 2 p.m. It’s just drinking from the fire hose and keeping myself organized with all those checks and balances I have in place. 

And then the afternoon hour is a lot more strategically thinking about, like, how can I identify new people to reach out to? Or how can I, research potential creators to be looking at?

It’s a lot more of, research-heavy or data-entry-heavy type work because it’s not quite constantly an email response. And I find boundary setting is better left unsaid. People will respond to your working style. You don’t necessarily have to be so explicit. It took me a lot.

Like, when I worked in tech, I really struggled with setting boundaries, but I found if I respond to an email after 5 PM, I’ll get an email back. It just creates that expectation where it’s like, oh, you’re not, you’re still working, then you’re accessible. Or if I respond to an email on the weekend, it’s the same thing and previously, it felt like I’d rather just get it done really fast, than, wait till the morning, wait till business hours. 

But as I’ve gotten older and really learned how to set boundaries, I’ve realized that, unless it’s truly urgent, there’s no reason for me to even respond and be like, I’ll respond in the morning.

If I wait to respond, then that email response won’t come till it’s business hours. And they’ll understand they can email me, they can reach out to me anytime they want, but unless it’s truly. Like an urgent emergency, I will only respond, in the time that it makes sense. 

Jessy: Totally I think it’s funny because I know that when I get email replies back at like right at 8 a.m. m I know that it was like scheduled from the night before from like another time because now they’re great, so many great automation tools that like, built into the tools that we know and love.

Like now on your iPhone, you can, long press the send button and it’ll send it at a different time and you don’t have to send it immediately. You never used to be able to do that. So like if you want to take care of or handle a response now because it helps your mental state. But you don’t necessarily want to actually have it. You want to get it off your plate now, but you don’t want to, start that momentum when, oh, now they feel like they need to respond. You can, because you can use that iPhone feature. You can use, Gmail has schedule send. So I love that so much. I think that’s a really great advice 

Megan: My scheduled send time is usually 8:16 a.m. Pacific time. If you’re getting an email from me at 8:16, it’s probably because I wrote it the night before and scheduled it, but I changed it from 8 a.m. exactly. So it looks super casual.

Jessy: I love that so much. I actually didn’t really, I guess I figured you could change the time, but I never really thought about it. That’s so smart. 8:16 is your time. Is there any significance to that number, or it’s just a random number for you? 

Megan: 16 is my lucky number and I like getting it out before the 9 o’clock time frame. I’m probably getting a response back pretty early in the morning. Once I actually am online. Yeah, that’s the thinking. 

Jessy: I love that. Yeah, 23 is my lucky number. I was curious. I was like, why 8:16? Okay, I’m glad there’s a good answer to that. So I’m curious, I want to pivot just a little bit so you mentioned briefly, casually when I worked in tech I know that you worked at a lot of really cool companies before coming to Whalar, one of them is Patreon, for example, and I’m curious we talk a lot about, in terms of strategizing for long term careers for creators, that the importance of not putting all of your eggs in the brand partnership basket. 

There are so many other additional revenue streams that could be really wise to invest in from the creator’s perspective and then in turn, for the manager as well. So I’m curious A, What was it like working at Patreon? But B do you see it as a tool that you think all creators should be using when monetizing their influence? 

Megan: Yeah, but to answer your 1st question, what it was like working there? The task of working at a tech company oftentimes feels like you’re trying to boil the ocean. In the best way possible we were trying to get as many creators as possible on the platform. But the amazing thing about working at a company like Patreon, especially there were no advertisers or our core customer, our only customer was the creator.

So we could really say that we are a creator-first business. And like everyone who was walking in the door every day was passionate about creators. Was it the creators themselves? Like Jack Conte, the CEO is a musician and a YouTuber. And again, from the leadership down, that really permeated the whole culture, like there were so many creative types and so many people who are so passionate and really took seriously, like Patreon is about that, like middle class of creator.

And oftentimes people are making between a thousand to 10, 000 a month. And for them, it’s like their rent payment and The Patreon team took that very seriously. We are helping creators pay their rent. We are helping them do this job full-time and have that sustainable income. In terms of should every single creator have a Patreon?

I think every single creator should, as you said, diversify their income because, like any small business, It’s super smart. And we’ve seen the brand business go up and down through the recession, through the strike, through COVID. And so having a form of income that you can control a little bit more and having that direct connection to your audience and cutting out that middleman, I think is really important for creators to think about, but it can take a lot of forms for some creators, it’s a product line. For some, it’s an app for some, it’s courses for some, it’s Patreon. So it really depends on the type of creator that they are. I usually say like any creator that has a podcast. It’s so easy to set that up. Jessy, you should have one if don’t. 

Jessy: I don’t. I don’t. Tell me why, though. Let’s talk about it because I’m sure there are a lot of podcasters listening. Like, why is it such a no-brainer for podcasters in particular? 

Megan: Yeah, there’s a couple of things. So the way that people think about Patreon is not like a Kickstarter crowdfunding model. It’s a membership model. Like when you think about a museum. So like you can go to a museum for free and take in the art and it’s amazing, but you could also pay to be a member and you get access to perks like events, like discount codes in the store, like you get that one layer deeper and you get to feel like you’re truly patron, which is where the Patreon comes from of the museum and you’re like supporting the great work that they’re doing. So it’s that same model where it’s not hey, we need help making this project happen. It’s you can listen to the podcast for free and maybe have ads and you get 1 a week.

And also, we have this 5-a-month Patreon where you can get the episode ad-free, you get a longer episode, or you get bonus episodes, you get discount codes to our merch store, you get invited to, events exclusively for our Patreon followers. So it gives podcasters the opportunity to go one layer deeper and it’s like that sales funnel where like you’re catching you know your full audience listening to that like ad version of your podcast and then the Patreon is like one to five percent of that core group where you can really treat them like a focus group almost which is so valuable for a creator so you can you know reach out to them and be like hey we’re developing new merch, what do you guys think of these designs? Here are a couple of topics we have in mind for the podcast. Which ones do you want to see? And it’s that trusted core group that’s paywalled. Not everyone can access it. And there are no trolls, usually. And you can really build that strong connection.

Jessy: No, I love that. I usually describe them as your super fans. Where your wide reach is going to be, all the people that follow you on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, what have you. But then there is this really key group of how you describe them.

But I always say super fans where they can be the most valuable people that follow you. And there are so many creators. I think that they just naturally try to create content for, quote-unquote their audience. But there are more instances, I think, where you might want to actually think about creating content for that core group, those super fans, whatever you call them because those are the ones who are actually going to comment on your stuff, who are actually going to be moved to action, who are, going to really move the needle for your business. And, from a metrics perspective, like sure, like flaunt that giant reach that you have of everybody that follows you.

But I think from a business perspective, it’s probably wiser to really focus on that core group because speak to them. You’re never going to be able to please everybody. You’re never going to be able to appeal to, a huge group of people. So if you can really identify who those people are, what they want from you, what they appreciate and love the most, speak to them and you’ll really probably see a significant, ability to move the needle of your own business.

Megan: Mhm. Yeah, we talk to clients about that all the time. And I think sometimes they lose perspective where they just think about that big number where they’re like, if I could just get 100, 000 on TikTok and Instagram, then I can do X. And it just keeps moving to a million and then 2 million.

And, they just keep moving those parameters, when really brands agencies thinking about the core of their businesses sustainability is that like core 1 to 5% and that follower number really doesn’t matter. It’s the engagement number. It’s the views. It’s the people that are coming back and are loyal and will follow you across platforms or will activate.

If you’re doing a tour or you’re selling something like a course or merchandise or whatever it is. You can trust that they will support you in that way. That’s so much more important than hitting that arbitrary follower number.

Jessy: And so speaking of the other places that you’ve worked, I know that you are also a head producer at the Shorty Awards, which I found really interesting. What are your thoughts broadly about award ceremonies in our industry? Because, there are so many of them, and I’m curious what you think of them. 

Megan: Yeah. I worked at the Shorties from 2013 to 2016. I had the privilege of getting to run the influencer show. That’s really how I got into this initially because I came from TV as a producer and just like randomly fell into this production job. But the amazing thing with the shorties at the time was the market wasn’t saturated.

It was just very hard to understand who are the top players. Who are the best people creating content in the art vertical? This was like when Vine was a thing. Who are the best people creating comedy on Vine? Who are the best education YouTubers? There wasn’t really that resource. We refer to the Shorties as the yearbook of social media.

And every year we would hand select 500 creators across 20 to 30 categories. It was like a crazy amount of, categories and creators. And we would then get to go to the creator and be like, we’ve recognized you for doing great work on the Internet. So it was very different than it is now.

Oftentimes now it’s more creators that have agents and managers paying to enter their work, which is how the majority of award shows work. But it was a really just like sweet, innocent time where like we could pluck creators out of obscurity and give them the recognition we felt they deserved and also recognize minority creators whether that is across like queer identities, gender identity, racial identity, whatever it was like we really had the opportunity to have it be like the yearbook of the internet and have it be like a very equitable, like display of who we felt was doing the best and not just these are the top 10 YouTubers, like Jenna Marbles, Bretton, link, who have the most subscribers.

It was like, no, these YouTubers are creating great content and some of them have millions of subscribers, but some have 50, 000 subscribers. And so that was a really unique privilege. 

Back then, our competitors were the stream is in the Webby’s to this day, it’s still people would be like, how was it working at the stream? He’s gonna be like, I don’t know, but I can ask Drew. We would get confused about them all the time. Now there’s a lot more. And I think it’s great. I’ve always felt like this industry is underrecognized, and under awarded, and it’s taken a really long time for people to take it seriously. And I feel like I was like, one of the first people that was like, these aren’t just like silly little teenagers making videos in their rooms, these are like huge, like productions, they’re doing the writing, the performing, the editing, the shooting, they’re doing everything themselves.

This has never happened before. They’re so uniquely talented. This is a very difficult thing to do. And I just felt like people weren’t taking it seriously, or influencers were so often the butt of the joke, and only in the last few years, it felt, it feels like they’ve been taken a little bit more seriously.

There are still, of course, some influencers that make the rest of us look bad. I feel like but I’m so happy to see more publications taking it seriously and more words popping up and recognizing creators for, the work that they’re putting out into the world. My client Emanuel won the Webby this year for the best creator in food beating Gordon Ramsey, which is amazing.

Gordon is such a huge traditional talent, but it’s such an amazing thing to get to say, like a creator who worked in solar energy before creating his Tik Tok and he’s so hard working and he’s grown a huge audience. And, yeah, like he can be recognized and be in the same place as someone like Gordon, I think is amazing.

Jessy: That’s totally amazing. Yeah, I’m glad you are open about, the fact that like a lot of these award ceremonies started in a certain way and I think they’re pretty much all pay-to-play these days. Whatever opinion you have of that, it just is what it is.

The main thing I just want is, for people to be aware of that, because I don’t know that enough people are. I remember back in the day at the Shorty Awards and attending in person and like with a couple of clients and, liked the fun and excitement of it. And I know for a fact that it wasn’t a pay-to-play thing at all. And it was really truly just about recognition.

And you can like you said, like pluck people out who are just like, doing really cool, innovative things. And it’s different. I am the first one to say I understand and respect that it’s a business at the end of the day. And so it has to make money and that’s the main way that it does. I get it. 

The main thing I just want to like, convey, which is what you said is just so everyone is aware that most of them are pay-to-play. However, there are people who don’t win. People do pay to get into it, but then they ultimately do have people who judge those entries and do ultimately select the winner, but to get into that pool of talent you do usually have to pay to get in it. 

Megan: Yeah, I think it’s tough. Like at the shorties, we were the ones taking on that cost, they hired me and a handful of others to select those nominees, which was not free for them. Obviously, I was paid for that work and now, it’s flipped where that cost is more on the creator.

So some form of that is necessary because it is so saturated. Even back in 2013, we nominated 500 people, but there were probably 2000 people to choose from. I think it’s important to help weed through. I wish there was some form of, scholarship or identifying creators who maybe can’t pay themselves and that’s similar to plucking them out of obscurity so that it’s not the same, as a hundred people who have the money to enter.

I wish there was a balance, but I understand you need some form of weeding through the crowd, whether that’s the award show taking on the cost or the creators themselves.

Jessy: Yes, I think that’s a really good idea, but then of course you’re identifying like who quote-unquote didn’t have the money to pay and like whether it’s like public or certainly behind the scenes, like you know who got the scholarship and who didn’t. I don’t know. I would hope there has to be a way to like award such a thing as a scholarship, but make it discreet, but I don’t know. 

Megan: And TikTok’s made it tricky too. Our foryou pages are also unique to us, so it’s anyone who would be doing that process now, like the process we did in the shorties, I think it’d be very hard to have it not be, like, the biased perspective of a 26-year-old white woman living in New York City, if that were happening now.

But, yeah it’s such an interesting space. It’ll be interesting to see how it continues to evolve.

Jessy: For sure. And, I think one of the great things about award ceremonies is just simply having a moment to acknowledge people that are doing great work, like at its purist sense. I love that and I would love to see that continue. I think that it would be great if the playing field was a little bit more level from the onset but I want to see them succeed and I want to see them figure that out. So I really hope that they do.

It’s been really fun chatting with you today and I feel like we bounced around a bunch of different topics I would love for our listeners to reach out and connect with you and continue some of these conversations. What’s the best way for them to do that? 

Megan: Please email me your big three and we can talk about it and what it means to you. I didn’t get yours, Jesse. But yeah, I’m on Instagram, thats Megan Frantz and you’re welcome to email me as well. Meganfratz@whalar com. But yeah, this has been great. I really appreciate it. Happy to talk about anything management, astrology, award shows, all the things.

Jessy: I love that so much. It’s been super fun, thank you for coming on, thank you, guys, for listening, and we will see you next week.