[00:00:00] Jessy: Hi everyone, and welcome to the WIIM Podcast. Women in Influencer Marketing is a first of its kind exclusive networking group made up of inspirational women. This podcast is where we explore influencer marketing and get real about women in business. Find us wherever you download your podcast. and of course, you can always find us at iamwiim.com. That iamwiim double I .com.
Hey guys, what is going on? Welcome back to Women in Influencer Marketing, the podcast. I’m here with you every single week. My name is Jessy Grossman. I founded this community, but our community is nothing, if not for our members.
So I just wanna give a like giant warm thing, huge fruit to those of you who listen weekly to those of you who have joined the membership to those of you who are active in our Facebook group and our Slack board and come to our events and like the whole nine because I am very well aware that our group would be honestly nothing if not for our members.
So just thank you guys so fricking much. This is probably the only week ,where I’m like grateful if you’re only tuning into the audio. Cuz if you’re tuning in the video, you probably see this little burn mark on my forehead. I was just trying to feel a little nice by coming on camera and recording a podcast for you guys and I was like, I’m gonna curl my hair. I got some extensions going on, girls trying to feel pretty today. And I burned my fucking forehead.
Thank you to those who are only listening to the audio. It’s probably not that bad right now. It’s just like this big red mark on my forehead that I’m gonna have to stare at for the next bit of time while I record this.
But I feel like it’s gonna get way worse. So tune in next week for giant gash in my forehead. Oh my god, I’m such a fricking dork. Alright, so I have a very great guest for you today. Today is not a solo episode in case you were hoping for one. It is another awesome interview. So why is it awesome cuz you’re like, Jessy, you literally always say that. It’s awesome.
I know that, but I I wouldn’t bring on guests if I didn’t think they were awesome. This guest, however, has actually been on before, so you know that I think she’s amazing. She’s also someone that I am very grateful that I get to call a friend. Her name is Tanya Silverstein of Whalar.
But before I introduce her and tell you all about, contracts and negotiations and all the really great tips that she’s gonna be giving you today, I also wanted to just talk for a second about routine. How many of you really like routines? Because I will tell you, I was not that person. I would say most of my life I lived very spontaneously. I actually like didn’t really like routine at all, and I don’t know if it’s the fact that I’m in my mid thirties or life has just changed, but I love the routines in my life and there aren’t so many.
So I really like even more appreciate the ones that I have, like driving Zoe to camp in the mornings and or to school, depending on what time of year it is, getting my nails done on the weekends. And I’ve been like bringing her, so she gets a little manicure and she’s oh, can they gimme the back massage
Which is hilarious. And I never thought I would be raising such a bougie six, almost seven year old. But there we are. Oh my God, I have this giant gash in my nail that I need to get redone. Like I have two nails that are toast. I gotta go back to the nail salon.
Speaking of getting my nails done, feeding my pets it’s just lovely having animals in our house. I don’t know about you guys. I know quite a few of you guys have your dogs and some cats make an appearance in our monthly like connect and chat calls where we just talk about how like industry topics and stuff and it’s so nice seeing everyone’s like dog and other family members on camera.
I don’t know I really am really liking routine lately, but I guess, I don’t know, why am I bringing it up today? To me, it’s related to the conversation at hand, which is contracts and negotiations. Because I also feel that as much as we can like routine, I also think there’s a little bit of a danger in getting too comfortable in routine, right?
Like it’s nice feeling comfortable. It’s nice feeling as if you have something that’s familiar. What if our work becomes a little too stale? What if we’re just always regurgitating the same things? What if we’re not looking deep enough because we got so used to just seeing the surface? I personally feel like this has become a growing problem in influencer marketing.
I remember back in the day, maybe you do too, when everything was like really up in the air wild west and exciting and we had to pay extra close attention because someone was gonna throw a curve ball. But like we didn’t even know what to expect cuz nothing was established. And now cut to 10 years later, I think a lot of us OGs need to snap out of our routines. And I’ll throw myself in that bucket too.
I wanna challenge you guys today to do the following. Try to look at something with fresh eyes that you’ve done on a regular basis, or give something that you’ve done repeatedly to an intern or an entry level, someone entry level on your team, and ask them what they think, because I worry that we’ve been doing this for a little too long. And we’re not as sharp as we once were.
And I’ve seen it, I’ve seen people rest on their laurels and get a little too comfortable. So that’s my challenge for you today. Whatever you do throughout your day find one or two things that you’re like, all right, I do this pretty repetitively. Let me look at it with fresh eyes, and let me see if there’s anything new that I can find. I hope you do that. I hope you really take me up on that.
All right, guys, so Tonya Silverstein is our guest today. Again, a dear friend of mine and someone who’s built a successful two decade career. She specializes in negotiation and talent endorsements of all sizes.
She’s been on both sides of those negotiations on behalf of brands, on behalf of talent. She started her career in PR and then ended up leaning into her passion, which is contracts and negotiations. I love a woman who knows and loves to negotiate.
Now today, she leads business affairs at the agency Whalar, which if you don’t know, is an incredible agency. They’ve won a bunch of awards lately, Ad Week’s Creator Agency of the Year. They’re like top 100 global best workplaces for innovators from Fast company. Really great agency.
In her role though at Whalar she creates processes, negotiates agreements, and works with brands and talent to power the creator community.
She’s worked with every single brand you could think of from like Google to the Amazons of the world, Unilever, Pfizer, Walmart, Estee Lauder, like beauty to pharma, to, tech and everything in between. And she’s just really into giving more voices to brands and whatever projects she’s working on through celebrities, through creators and just like expert voices in their content.
I’m so excited for you to hear from her today. Shoes drop and some gem. So tune in, sit back, relax and joy here is Tanya Silverstein of Whalar.
Welcome to the show. How are you?
[00:08:54] Tanya: I’m good. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for inviting me to, again, you’re so honored to be here twice now.
[00:09:02] Jessy: I’m glad that you feel honored because you are like today’s honoree. I only invite people on that I think are like fascinating and interesting and that I just personally like. So you are totally one of those people you’ve been in the industry for, you’re like an OG and I know that you bring so much perspective and insight and I’m just I’m excited for our members to hear and learn from you. So thank you for coming on again, and you’re the best.
[00:09:32] Tanya: Thank you for asking.
[00:09:33] Jessy: So we have definitely some questions queued up. We’re gonna get into all of them, but yeah, first and foremost, like for those of you who are tuning in, I would love for you to just briefly introduce yourself.
You’ve been on the show before. We’re gonna link that show in the show notes so that people can binge on Tanya Silverstein today. But I would love in your own words, tell everybody a little bit about your professional history and like how you got to where you are today.
[00:10:12] Tanya: Sure. First of all, I have a very unique kinda history because I started off in public relations before anything else. And when I started my career, I grew up in Michigan. Moved to New York right after college. Worked in retail for, I gave myself three months. I moved to, this is gonna very much date me, but I moved to New York right after nine 11. I graduated, I took a semester off of college and so I ended up graduating the December right after September 11th, 2001.
And of course, of all the places that I wanted to move, I moved to New York. So I moved to New York in January that year of 2002, excuse me. And the idea of getting into entertainment was all I wanted to do. I wanted to work in PR, I wanted to work in entertainment. And I got a job working in, I got a job working in retail and I worked at Express.
And when I went and got a job there, they’re like, you’re way overqualified for this job. And, but for me, I just wanted to be there and I wanted to work and I did end up getting a job at Ketchum three months later, but moving to New York without a job was the best thing that I ever could do.
And I know that, like the question is just tell me about your job, your time in the industry. But I think like my story of how I got there and I took a job working, in not necessarily the role I wanted to be in, but in the company that I did wanna be at.
And I think that with the economy going through so many ships and changes, I just want people to know who are out there that are looking for jobs and are looking to be at these big companies. While you should never settle, and I’m not saying that anyone should ever settle, sometimes taking that step to go in the right direction might be a sideways step rather than necessarily a step forward if it puts you into that step forward.
So, my career’s a little bit started a little bit unorthodox in that way. I worked in a couple different departments, both in entertainment and in brand. And the idea of being able, to shift and to grow within those roles. I worked there for a couple years and then I moved over to MSL Group was there for a couple years and then I moved from, strangely enough, moved from New York to Chicago, which we’re at right now to work at a company called Burns Entertainment, who is a, still to this day, a great celebrity broker company in entertainment management team that I was able to grow and build in my role in entertainment.
And then from there I went, I was there for a little over 10 years and then from there I went to a company called Starworks Artists, which is no longer in existence. And then I was on my own for a couple years and since then I’ve been at Whalar.
I realized that in my career, the parts that I really like is teaching people and growing and helping be a part of growing small teams. Even at these big companies that I was at previously, I was always a part of the small team and a very entrepreneurial opportunity. And when I left the world of entrepreneurism and freelance to go work at another company, which is where I’m at right now at Whalar, the idea that I could create and do things bigger with them and truly make a dent in an impact within the creator industry is something that i never have dreamed in my career.
Back when I first started, this is like one of those woe as me, walk up hill both ways, kind of stories, but, I was sending faxes and typing in numbers to people going to parties and, wrangling paparazzi to do red carpets. And I send out faxes three times a day to a list of a hundred different phone numbers. It’s ridiculous how far the industry has come and what we’re doing and I’m just so excited to be a part of it.
[00:14:29] Jessy: I feel like some people listening are probably like, what’s a fax machine? Some people are legitimately gonna ask that question, so I don’t know. Do people even need to know cuz like no one’s gonna use them anymore. However, I get the reference. I appreciate the reference though. I really appreciate transparently that’s how you like chose to start the story of like how your professional journey was.
There’s so many people right now that are like out of work or like uninspired or just a little lost and I can relate. Like there, there are so many twists and turns and it’s so rare that people like know a hundred percent with full certainty. Like not only what they wanna do, but how to get there. And so like I would ask you like what are some things that like you took from a windy path and not necessarily like a traditional start to your career.
Are there any things that you learned from that experience that you implement like today?
[00:15:35] Tanya: Yeah, I mean I definitely think that, here’s the thing, like imposter syndrome is real, right? And it’s very hard to see, but I also am a big believer ,that someone else’s success has zero to do with your success. And so remembering that in every way, and you’re gonna do what you’re meant to do, but you gotta work hard for it. It’s not gonna come to you. And sometimes you’re lucky and sometimes it does come and if you have that belief that those things will happen.
But I also am a believer that nothing happens by accident. I put myself into places where I’m going to network, I’m gonna meet people, or I introduce myself to people. I’ve, gone out on LinkedIn or Instagram, or even TikTok right? And just said, Hey, hi, how are you? I wanna introduce myself to you and ask them question.
People do it to me all the time. Also, it’s one of the things I like most also about being a mentor here with Wiim and with other organizations that I’m a part of. To be able to help that. I think the idea of the a path that you take, you’re gonna learn from all of the mistakes and they’re not necessarily mistakes, they’re challenges that you’re gonna learn and grow from.
I was talking to one of my colleagues this morning about this also, we all make mistakes. There is not one person, maybe there is, but not that I’ve come across at least that hasn’t made a mistake or don’t make mistakes. The difference is do you learn from him? And what do you grow and how do you take those challenges that you’ve had in the past and turn them into learning opportunities and successes and say, you know what, this didn’t work and this is what I learned from it and this is how we can do it.
Yeah, I’ve had not a ton of jobs, but I think the jobs that I have had and the positions that I’ve been in has all made me successful in the next role. I was at Star Wars, I left a job that I was at for 10 years to work at a company that I was at for less than a year. It didn’t work out. It wasn’t the right fit. But what I learned from that opportunity was that I didn’t wanna work on the talent side.
While I understand it, and actually gave me great insight, the, I learned that it wasn’t for me, and I didn’t, that wasn’t a world that I wanted to be a part of on a day to day basis, right? I wasn’t gonna represent talent. Now, what I did was, and the learning that I took from that, and the pivot that I took, was I now have a better understanding of when I’m working with talent agreements on the perspective of the talent and the perspective of that.
And so what I went into it, what I went into it originally was saying, oh, I have a great understanding of what the brand wants. Let me use that to the benefit of helping the talent. And now I’m able to see it from both sides very clearly. And I think working at a company like Whalar, I’m able to take that and in my role, be able to help the teams as we’re negotiating agreements, be able to say, okay, this is where the brand is coming from, or this is where the town is coming from and to be able to use those.
So I think that having a windy path, some people might say, backtrack a second I do think that having a straight path, it’s not a bad or a good thing, right? It’s that person’s path. And that’s wonderful. I think that for me, having a little bit of a windy path, even though it wasn’t the same fields, right?
And it just leveraged a little bit more on, on those things, I was able to take those learnings and it helped that next position, it helped that next role. It made me realize even, 15 years into my career, 17 years into my career, know what I figure out, what I thought I wanted isn’t actually what I wanted. And so I think trying something new and taking those risks helped me, at least in, in my career and in understanding those things.
[00:19:43] Jessy: I love taking risks. So I love that you said that. Totally. I wanna hear tell us that story about an experience or a moment that really shifted your career. You’ve themed quite a few, but I’m curious, is there like one or two, like specific ones that like you feel really like truthfully shifted your career?
[00:20:08] Tanya: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think the decision I made to leave public relations and go into entertainment full time. It definitely was weird to leave New York to come to Chicago to work in entertainment.
But I think that. So I left my PR career when I was at a pathway where I was in the running to be promoted to a more strategic level. And I was not, I wasn’t interested in doing it anywhere. I had to decide which way I wanted to go. I was at this, like in every career there’s those crossroads and I said, I could either do this and stay on the PR path and I could work in PR and entertainment. You could absolutely do that, and there’s a ton of jobs that way, but that’s not what I wanted to do either.
And I just wanted to do the entertainment stuff. And so it was also, at the beginning of social media, this was when MySpace was at its top. Facebook had just opened up to, again, this is really …
Facebook had just opened up to non students. Instagram wasn’t a thing. YouTube was just maybe not even starting or was like a blip in someone’s eye. Friendster was still a thing, but the idea was is that no one knew what to do with social media. And social media then lived in the world of public relations because no one knew what to do with an end. At that point, it was just earned media. People were doing it for fun.
And when we were working in contracts and which is the part that I actually really liked when we were including it in contracts, we used to have, like celebrities do like 20 Facebook posts. We had no idea what that meant, and they didn’t know what that meant either.
And there was no way that someone was actually gonna make 20 posts, but we still put it in contracts because that’s what we could do. But definitely learning, like at that time at the end of the, what is it called? The aux right, like the end of 2007, 2008.
At that time when social media was first emerging as a marketing pillar and it’s a marketing opportunity and being a part of an industry that could create and understand how it worked within agreements, how it worked within deliverables, I think that the part that I like most about my career, and as this happened because of the shift was that I was able to work on the really cool parts of everyone’s programs.
I think that sometimes when you work at an agency, you’re only working on one client and you’re, which is fabulous when you’re seeing it through from start to stop. And that’s amazing. The part that I really have liked about my journey is that I’m just a blip in all of those programs and the work that I do is just this blip in all of these programs. And I think if I would’ve stayed in public relations, could I work in entertainment? Absolutely. Would I have stayed in maybe CPG? Probably. Would I have liked it. Absolutely. I think PR is great and I think it’s made me the strategic thinker that I am today and thinking about end goals and all of those things. And, creating run of shows for every event that I do. And the PR girl never leaves you.
But the idea of being a part of more and the quantity of all the projects that I’ve been able to see in my career because I went into just talent broker, not just, but I went into talent brokering with a focus on talent brokering and a focus on talent negotiation to me has been very exciting and has helped me take those learnings from all of those clients and all of those programs to then build into a bigger and better career.
[00:24:29] Jessy: Everyone needs a Tonya. I just wanna throw that out there for so many reasons. First of all, like you have such a good extensive background. Like I don’t even think you’re selling how valuable it is that you’ve had such a variety of experience. I feel like there’s such a misnomer. Maybe other people didn’t experience it, but like when I was in school, when I was younger, I was told, oh you need to focus more. Like you need to figure it out.
You need to like just do one thing and not do so many different things. And that was like Jessie undiagnosed ADD, Jessie is diagnosed ADD, but so there’s a through line in Behavior, but the distinction is this, I actually think it’s bullshit that people are supposed to just focus on one thing, who wants to be a one trick pony? Like who wants to have such limited experience? Like you’ve worked in all of those areas that you mentioned and the most, one of the, probably the most valuable things that you now bring to Whalar, if I can be so bold as to say, is like all of that perspective, like now that you work on like contracts and negotiations and things like that, which we’re gonna get into that perspective is invaluable because that is what I think of when I think of somebody who is like a more seasoned professional, like that seasoning is because they really understand the other side and to be able to do so is like insanely powerful.
Here’s a question, real talk so you have all this great experience and I can go on and on and gush about you. I like, I hope I’m coming across about how I just respect you so much. I am such a fan. You have to know this. I think you’re incredible. It’s why we’re friends. So like real talk.
We can go on about how amazing your background is and how great it is now and all the things, but like we all have insecurities. You touched briefly, I heard earlier about like imposter syndrome, which I find is fascinating. So many successful women, no matter how successful they are, they feel that, what is an insecurity of yours that you actively have to keep at bay and like, how does it really affect you? I wanna get real. Let’s get real Tanya.
[00:27:12] Tanya: I don’t know if my clients or my my CEO would appreciate me saying this, but sometimes like imposter syndrome is real, and it’s real for I think a lot of people at every level. But like sometimes I feel like, why are people trusting me with this? And I know I’m smart and this sounds very cocky, but I know I’m smart. I know that people that I have good advice. I know that I know my stuff. I know that I should be trusted. I know that I’ve earned it. I know that I’ve experience, I know that I have the answers and not all the answers, my husband would maybe disagree with that, but I, I’m very confident in all those things.
And then sometimes I think about it and I wonder am I playing house? I have two kids. I own a home. I I own my vehicles. I do these things. I have a bank out is this real life? I sometimes still feel like a eight year old playing house and going to the store and playing school and all of these things.
It’s like, why is someone trusting me with these millions of dollars? And then I have to remember, I’ve earned this and there’s a lot of insecurities with that. But I think that part of something that I’m very passionate about is mentoring people in their careers and growing them.
And I think when I share my story and they get very excited about it, it reminds me how much I’ve done. It gets me excited again about my career and it reminds me that I actually do know what I’m talking about. And it reminds me that I should be confident. And I do have the answers and I do know the reasons. And there’s a reason why I was chosen for my job. And there’s a reason why people ask me questions. And so I have those answers and I have those resources.
But there are times that insecurity just overwhelms. And it’s like, why is someone trusting me? , the quote jack of all trades and some people say, Jack of all trades is a master of none. But the whole quote is, Jack of all trades is is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.
And something I really appreciate about that is that I do have all of these resources at my plate, and maybe I’m not like, reminding myself that I don’t have to always have all the answers, but I do have to know when to raise my hand and ask questions.
And that helps me in my day to day of getting over that like insecurity of, I don’t have to have all the answers, but that’s why you surround yourself with a great team. That’s why you surround yourself with great people. That’s why I’ve chosen to work where I work and have all the experiences that I’ve had because I know that I can’t do it alone.
And being a part of a bigger community that’s making a bigger difference really helps me get over a lot of those real feelings that I have.
[00:30:38] Jessy: Wait. I love that so much. That’s so good. I actually feel like that’s something that’s like very special about women. I feel I don’t know, I won’t like brush men with a broad stroke, but I’ll brush women with a broad stroke, like in, in complimenting them, right?
I feel like a lot of women ,what I’m hearing you say is that, you’re like, maybe I don’t have all the answers, but I have good instincts, and I know what I don’t know. And so it’s almost like that humility, but also coupled with the instincts, like that’s arguably more powerful because like it’s very rare that somebody has the perfect answer, maybe have the right answer, but answers are complex and so to be able to just know that you wanna surround yourself with good people could make your good answer great.
Like working collaboratively. Yeah. And knowing that we actually just got a comment in from one of our listeners, which I’ll read cuz it was addressing what was just said.
So Katie just said, I love that too. And it’s so refreshing to hear from someone here. I’ll pull it up on the screen actually so you guys can just read it. Someone had the pleasure of working with alongside and respect so much so is Katie.
[00:32:00] Tanya: Thanks Katie I’ll say the same way about you.
[00:32:04] Jessy: Oh, I love it. I don’t know. Isn’t that interesting? I agree. I feel like it really resonated with me. I’m really happy to hear that. It resonated with Katie too. We make so many, like snap judgments, right? It’s oh, this is an insecurity. Like how do you deal with it? It’s like I’m just a human being and it’s gonna come up and it’s gonna feel some more intense sometimes than others.
And I love that your remedy for that is like giving back and, knowing that by helping someone, it validates your knowledge and what a wonderful way to keep something to make, turn a negative into a positive. That’s phenomenal. And I know that the people who have experienced you in Wiim as a mentor like I’ve always heard great things, whether it’s been like, officially as part of our mentor program, and anyone who’s a member can have a session with Tanya, by the way.
We’ll link that in the show notes. But, so many people have unofficially been mentored by you. And I love how generous you are in that. And I was gonna ask you just a cause that you’re passionate about. So to me, it seems like mentoring, it sounds like that’s something that you’re really passionate about. Like where do you think that comes from and, is so special about mentoring to you?
[00:33:38] Tanya: First of all, thank you for all of that I’m definitely blushing right now. But mentoring, I’ve had such incredible mentors in my life. Everything from both personally and professionally . Being able to ask for help, being able to ask for things I’ve never been shy about asking.
I think that’s a big thing that has been part of my success is that when I’ve wanted something, I’ve asked for it, worse that happens is someone I can say no and I’m no worth off. I think there’s definitely a time and a place to ask, which is something that I’ve had a challenge learning over my career, but we all work on something.
But I think that having the ability to have great mentors has taught me how to be gracious with my time. I think that, starting in PR no one, at least in my experience, no one works in PR at least in the early stages to be rich. And so I was never able to give a lot to organizations in form of especially living in New York City.
But I was able to give in time and so something that I’ve always done and have just carried it with me in my career in and as I’ve got older, has just done more and more is being able to provide more time to people both personally and professionally. I do a lot within the Jewish community within my congregation at home here in Chicago, but also just nationally. And I did that within college too of having and holding leadership positions.
But I think that being able to help that next generation of doing better and being better is only going to make this industry better. And, speaking specifically about social media and influencer the creator space in general, if we don’t…
There’s a lot of the way that social media is changing, that I’m learning right alongside everyone else, right? It changes so fast and incredibly fast and some of these things that I just don’t know. But what I do know is that contracts in the law, even though the laws might change, the functions won’t change.
And what I can bring to the table is, and what I can teach the creators that are just starting off in their career, or even people that are working at agencies on the brand side or representing talent, is like how to protect yourself and how to make sure, at least within the laws as it stands right now, and in all transparency. I’m not a lawyer. I’ve just been working in contracts for a very long time.
But understanding how everything all works together. But this is where I go back to what I said before, I know what I don’t know. Not all the time, right? We all have our blind spots, but for the most part I know what I don’t know, and I know when to ask questions and and where to ask for help and have those resources.
And I have, I think the ability to, because I was given so much, the ability to be able to give back and hope that, then that next generation is gonna continue to do that. And what you said earlier about women helping women, I think it’s really true, which is why I really like what you’ve built so much here within Wiim.
The idea of women helping women grow within this industry, it is definitely an industry that is run by women. But if you aren’t taught, you can’t expect someone to know what they’re doing. And I’m not saying the way that I teach or the way that I do things is necessarily the right way. Everyone does things a little bit differently, and that’s what I think what makes this world so amazing.
But if we don’t teach the next generation, or the next group or even our peers how to do and be and think in a different way, well it might not be their way. The idea that they then have a different perspective to grow and to build within this industry, to turn it into something bigger and better than we’ve even thought of.
Look at the beginning of my career, social media was not even a thing. Like it literally did not exist. So the fact that in 20 years my career has changed a hundred percent, like I’m doing something that didn’t even exist when I started my career, is incredible and I’m only looking forward to seeing where it can grow and one day being mentored by the people that I’m mentoring here. I don’t think that age has anything to do with mentorship either. So I think we all have something to learn from each other.
[00:38:31] Jessy: And if we can all keep learning our entire lives, oh my God, it’ll be such a fulfilling life. Like I learned from you, I learned from my cousin who like just graduated from college. It’s not an age thing. I couldn’t agree with you more and throw that out the window cuz I don’t know, it’s such a limiting belief and it’s just fun to learn from people.
Maybe I’m just like nerdy. Maybe we’re both dirty and that’s why we’re good friends, but yeah, so nerdy and I just think that it’s so fun to learn and just to get that fresh perspective. It’s fresh, it’s exciting, it’s new and that’s when you’re in trouble is when you think, you’re like, your shit doesn’t stink. You think you’re too cool for school. Like you think that you don’t have anything to learn. That’s actually like when you get, like, when you get complacent, that’s when you get like irrelevant, right?
I don’t know, there’s like a whole other conversation, especially when it comes to social media, it’s like changing so rapidly and it’s a very young industry and so like you’re talking about my space, the beginnings of Facebook, yeah, I was there too. Like I remember those times. Right?
Isn’t it interesting I don’t know, talking about fears a little bit, like I worry that will I like age out of the industry. It’s such a young industry and I’ve thought about that. It’s certainly like a real concern, but i guess to answer the question that I asked you about, like insecurities, like how do I keep that at bay?
I keep learning and I check my ego at the door, cuz like the more that you just learn from other people and listen and engage and like you’re, you like have that curiosity like, that’s how you remain relevant. So like for whatever reason it is for you. I enjoy it. I think it’s fun to learn from people and I love getting to know people. That’s probably why I have a podcast.
But or if you just wanna if you wanna like legitimately remain forever relevant, forever, like the most knowledgeable person in the room, like you need to talk to people, you need to ask them questions like you need to learn from them. So I love that.
I wanna ask you, so you were talking about of course, your expertise in contracts and we haven’t even really talked about that yet because you have such a cool background. But that is what you’re focused on these days, which is fascinating to me. You help me with contracts, you help other members. You’ve taught me so much and Whalar is so lucky to have you. I wanna learn from you right now.
So if you were to articulate to someone listening who reviews contracts a lot, if there were five let’s limit it to five. There are five contract clauses that were worth scrutinizing the most. What would you tell them to scrutinize and focus on?
[00:41:50] Tanya: Sure. I think it depends what position you’re coming from, but I’ll answer it in both using the exact same terms. So the first one is services from a talent contract. If you are on the brand side and you are requesting it, make sure it’s clear. If you’re on the talent side, make sure you understand what you need to do, putting down one video. Doesn’t work, right? You can’t just say, create one video. It’s create one Instagram video. Is that a rewl or is that a in feed post? Is that a story? If you leave to interpretation, then you’re gonna have questions later on.
And there was someone in Wiim the other day posted saying they did a deal based on a handshake. And contracts aren’t for being nice. Contracts are to protect both sides of the story. So make sure that it’s clear. And by the way, this is gonna be the message throughout the entire, these five. But definitely clarity is the biggest thing.
Understand what’s expected of you and what you’re asking. While I think from a brand perspective, you hope that a creator, we’ll go above and beyond and do extra work and do more things. That’s not always gonna be the case. And you need to be happy with what you’re asking for and be specific.
And also if it’s a hashtag challenge or there’s a deadline or it’s for an event that’s for a certain date, make sure that in a contract you put down when you need the information, die, when is it due? And this can all go in the services section, right? To be posted no later than X, date at X time. What is the time zone? The details matter when it comes to that stuff.
Usages is my next one. I think that for usages, is there use after the term understanding in an agreement, what is that use after the term? It is standard within the industry within social media, PR even frankly, advertising to be able to keep up content on social media without just statically to be able to keep up that information statically in the normal flow of a feed. But also to allow it for, in internal use case studies to be able to use it for award show entries and all of those things. What is the use during the term? What is the use after the term? What are those details? And it’s not for me unless I’m negotiating the agreement, right? But it’s not for me to say what’s good or what’s bad. That has to be a decision that you make. What is your expectation? If you are from the brand side and you are providing an agreement to someone, what do you.
And then also on the talent side, is that what you’re willing to give? And if not, why not? And why are you limiting those things? And to be able to understand those things. Now, is it a money thing? Great. Renegotiate the money? Is it a a conflict? The word perpetuity, a lot of people say for for usages that perpetuity is a bad thing. I don’t necessarily think perpetuity is a bad thing. I might get some enemies here, but I think that it, based on the deal, right? There are some brains that will not move forward without using perpetuity and ownership of the content. Okay? That’s what they want.
Do you wanna be as a creator, do you wanna be the creator that gives it. Yes or no, like you have a choice. You might not like the options. Either you work with them or you don’t work with them. But there’s still a choice. So understanding that and being able to go in open eye and understand what you’re getting yourself into.
And then that goes back into term. So services usages term is the third one. With the term, there could be multiple terms. There could be an exclusivity term, there could be usage term, there could be a term of the agreement. So the word term for those of you who dunno, the word term means length of time. You could also mean like clause in the agreement. So sometimes those words get interchangeably and can be confusing. You’re talking to someone and depends on the sentence, right? But what I’m saying here is specifically about the length of time of the agreement.
If the term for the agreement, the length of the agreement, Is different than the usage and it’s different maybe than even the exclusivity, you need to read through the agreement and make sure that when you see, you can just do a search and find in all in Word or Google however you’re viewing the Doc, but on Apple, but doesn’t matter.
The point is that the idea is that you can do a search and find and find the word term capital T most often and understand what are the things that relate to that term, what is the things that relate to that period of time.
So oftentimes there’s a morals clause that are relate to a term, there’s an indemnity that’s related to a term and sometimes thereafter there’s other details within the agreement that relate specifically to maybe a one year period of time when only the usage is only 30 days. So you need to be careful what those details are within the agreement.
And again, not for me to say what’s bad or good, I just wanna my thing is making sure that people know what they’re doing and that they’re looking at it open eye. So it’s three.
The fourth one I was exclusivity. Understand that when if you are from with a brand, what is the exclusivity that you really need? Maybe ask a little bit more for negotiation tactics, right? But ,what is that your absolute must have? And understand what that looks .
Like from the talent side also understand, are you willing to do that? And does that stop you from doing other things? So a lot of times people will say we’re gonna charge an extra, X amount of dollars for a month of exclusivity. You know what? If it’s a product that you know you’re not gonna talk about, sure you can charge for it, but does is that then gonna make the project cost prohibitive and then the brand isn’t gonna wanna work with you?
So I think there’s something to say about a negotiation. If you’re a beauty influencer, let’s just say you’re a beauty creator and you talk about makeup all the time, that’s all you talk about. And this brand wants you to stop talking about any makeup for 30 days. That’s gonna be a huge, like A, you probably won’t do it, but B like that to me makes sense on why you would charge for exclusivity and or do just say no to the project.
But if you’re a beauty influencer and it’s for an automobile and the exclusivity is that you can’t endorse another automobile for three months. When’s the next time you’re gonna get an auto campaign. Now maybe you get auto campaigns all the time because of your size of an influencer, but that’s just something to think about, right?
So understand what that looks like. And the other thing with exclusivity is if brands are listed, not brands, but parent companies are listed within the list of exclusivities make sure that you understand, and I think this is something for anyone who is an agency or a negotiator and your client tells you we want, I’m just making this up for arguments sake.
We are Coke, so we can’t have them work on anything for Pepsi, Nestle, or Keurig Dr. Pepper. To me that makes sense because it’s Coke and they can’t work on any of those for 30 days. That to me makes sense but if it is a beauty brand, no, let’s come up with something else. It is a sure, a beauty brand and they say you can’t work on any other beauty made by Johnson and Johnson.
Okay, that’s great because Johnson and Johnson makes Neutrogen and Aveno and like all these great companies, but Johnson and Johnson also makes so like maybe it’s all beauty products from Johnson and Johnson, but Johnson and Johnson also makes baby products and they also make pharmaceuticals, and they also make all these other brands that have nothing to do with beauty. And so I think…
[00:50:56] Jessy: I’ve actually had this exact scenario happen with Nestle. Do you know that Nestle makes water? Like..
[00:51:06] Tanya: Water, pet food? Yep. All of that.
[00:51:10] Jessy: All these random things, which I didn’t know. So I’m so happy that you’re bringing this up because like it’s not necessarily common knowledge. And then you’re f’d up so, yes a thousand percent endorses. Sorry to interrupt, but I went through the same thing, so I wanted bring it up yes, continue, please.
[00:51:30] Tanya: Yeah, no, and exactly that point, right? So Nestle’s a great example. If you are working with Kraft and they say you can’t work with Nestle, my position back on that if I was a talent manager or a talent that’s negotiating, I would say no problem working with any snack foods from Nestle, but to restrict me from working with Nestle with water and pet foods and all of these other brands that they create or Unilever beauty products, right?
They also make ice cream and condiments, right? Which have nothing to do with Dove hair care. And these are all great brands, but understanding now there are gonna be some brands that is a direct conflict to work from anything. So like you get into the Coca-Cola wars, right? You get into the Coke and Pepsi and there’s a lot of die hards that work at Pepsi that won’t even eat at McDonald’s because they serve Coke products.
So there are some companies, you’re just not gonna be able to avoid it and have full brands. But I think exclusivity for this is… Anyway, the point of the story is make sure you know exactly what you’re agreeing to make sure you know the whole story and understand that it’s not just a brand, but a company also, if you’re agreeing to those big terms.
[00:52:51] Jessy: So is there one last, one last one that you wanna add? These are so good. So continue please.
[00:52:57] Tanya: Oh, payment is make sure you know what you’re getting paid and when. I think that the idea of getting paid, no one does this for their health. As much as we all might enjoy what we’re doing and being a part of something bigger than ourselves the idea that we are doing this for free is not a thing.
So make sure you know what you’re getting paid, how you’re getting paid, make sure you’re comfortable with the terms. Some brands have very long payment terms, some companies have long payment terms, might not be able to change it. But definitely make sure that you are in a good place. I do think if I can have five and search for the word perpetuity, I know I said that before, but understand what it means.
Perpetuity has gotten a really bad or the word thereafter, right? Those kinda go hand in hand. I think it perpetuity and thereafter have gotten a lot of bad lack that they’ve been portrayed as, the four letter words.
They’re not, I think that they have a place, they have a purpose. Whether you agree to what that purpose is something that you need to understand going into the deal. Like for example, use and perpetuity for internal purposes to is not a big deal. As someone representing creators, I don’t think there’s a reason to object to that at all.
Now, use on publicly, maybe, depending on what you know, how you’re getting paid and what your compensation is, that might be something that you need to figure out as you’re negotiating. But when you’re looking at those words, don’t just cross out. If you’re negotiating an agreement on behalf of a talent or on behalf of yourself, just don’t negotiate out. Understand why you’re negotiating it out and understand how it’s gonna affect the overall program.
[00:54:56] Jessy: Five and a half. I love you so much. Five and a half is perfect. That half one was, that was a whole one, that was really good. So here’s the like, million dollar question, right? And here is where I hope people’s ears perk up even more.
So Tanya, you have an issue with one of these clauses. Like I’m reviewing a contract. I’m like, all right, what did Tanya tell me to look at? Okay, so exclusivity. That really stood out to me. Oh, interesting. So oh, there’s one of those companies that they were talking about on that podcast, Nestle or whatever the parent company is that might have a number of different brands under that umbrella, you do little research and you find out that’s the case.
So you’re like, oh, thank God I listened to Tanya. She’s so knowledgeable and she’s legitimately gonna help me right now. So my question is how do you ask to change something that you disagree with in a contract? What tips and tricks do you have for us?
[00:56:07] Tanya: So I think like people are gonna be like, really? That’s your advice? I think the very, most basic answers, you just ask for it. You redline the agreement. For those of you who aren’t familiar with what that means is, means you track your changes. Tracking changes and agreements is very important. You want the other side to see the changes that you’re gonna make, track it, and then make a comment.
All these, word, Google doc whatever it is, you have the ability to make a comment, put it in there and explain why you’re crossing it out. Don’t just cross something out, but explain why you’re crossing it out. Say, this was not, maybe someone adds something into an agreement that wasn’t negotiated as part of the original, just say, not contemplated under the original negotiation.
Happy to add it in for, additional, happy to discuss or something along those lines. But if it’s a total non-starter for you, then just cross it out and say non-negotiable. This was not part of the original act. We wouldn’t have done this if it wasn’t. Now, if they come back and say we must have it, I think the biggest thing is finding out why, what is their why?
There’s a lot of different forms of negotiation. I’m a big fan of an assumptive close, meaning that you know what you want, they know what they want and you’re gonna give them something in order to then meet them someplace else. Good way to do this, like payment terms right, is an easy example to explain this with.
So if they say we have 90 day payment terms and they’ve agreed to 60 before you go in at 45, you go in at 30. You go in at 30 saying we do 30 day payment terms, and they say we do 60. And then you both come in and meet at 45. It’s called like an assumptive close. Both sides are coming and you’re going in with one thing, knowing that they’re gonna close with another.
But I think the biggest thing in a negotiation for me is to listen to the why’s of the other side. Why do you wanna remove it? Why do you need it? Also on the side of a negotiation, when we’re negotiating on behalf of a brand, if sometimes it’s just, it is the way it is, right? And sometimes that’s just the answer. And if the talent wants to work on it, they’re gonna work on it and something they won’t. But maybe if you understand the why, you can then edit the language to not be exactly as they needed it, but maybe still getting them what they want, without wording it in the way that you object to.
So what I mean by that is sometimes there’s an ask within a contract that as a whole doesn’t work. But in theory, you’re not totally objecting to the idea of it. If you change the language and you adapt language to work for both sides, everyone still comes out ahead and everyone still is able to move forward. So the biggest thing is just ask, explain your reasoning if you’re crossing it out, and don’t be afraid to ask.
Again, it’s that thing if I didn’t ask for my first internship, I wouldn’t be working in entertainment . If you don’t interview for a job you’re not going to work there. If you don’t ask for a raise, the likelihood is your company is just gonna give you cost of living raises if you don’t advocate for yourself, right? So if your job is to advocate for your client or for yourself in negotiating a contract, just ask. But the next step is really finding out why and listening to their why’s and being able to weed through what they’re really meaning.
That said, there are times you just can’t change language. It is what it is. It’s non-negotiable. But again, you might not like the choices, but you still have a choice whether you move forward or not. But at least you understand and I go back to the saying that I’ve always said, contracts aren’t for being nice. You have to understand and make sure that you’re comfortable with what all the expectations are, and make sure that it’s very clearly written.
[01:00:31] Jessy: I mean contracts aren’t for being nice. Contracts are for like when things haven’t and like shit hasn’t hit the fan deciding what is gonna happen if shit hits the fan. Like we’re all women. It’s what if you’re writing a prenup? It’s the same thing. It’s like we are deciding when we are in a healthy mindset, what could happen if shit hits the fan and like it’s a little uncomfortable. Who wants to talk about a prenup? We’re friends here, Ryan, everything’s fine. But no, like actually it’s an incredibly powerful document.
Prenups and contracts to like, to save the relationship so it doesn’t go so off the rails, right? And so it’s important to spend time on it. Don’t think ugh, I wonder if I’m asking too much or if I’m gonna push too far or what have you.
They can always say no, and you move on. But I love what you’re saying about ask them questions, clarify why you’re redlining a thing in such a way, because it, like we’re gonna have a therapy session. It’s all about relationships today. And it’s the same, a relationship is a relationship and like communication is really important in any relationship.
And I agree, If I got a red lines contract, It just had a red line through it, like a red line. It’s like literally it’s so harsh, right? Or it had a red line with little comment with, in a nice enough tone or just simply explaining why that lands very differently.
[01:02:15] Tanya: It almost saves a lot of time in the negotiation, right? It saves a lot of time in the back and forth, a hundred percent. And I think to your point about contracts, I say, they’re not for being nice, but and yes, you refer to them in case there’s a challenge and that’s what they’re there for, but they’re also there for clarity front and setting expectations front.
What are you doing? What are you getting? What is one side like, it is it makes the rules of the, it’s the rules of the relationship. What is that? And by the way, totally random on prenups. I am, again, not a lawyer and someone may be able to share this. My TikTok feed popped up something about prenups the other day, which I’ve been married for a very long time, so I don’t know why it hit me.
But the someone said that getting a prenup, your choice to get a prenup or not get a prenup is not whether or not you decide, but whether the government decides cuz the government has rules about divorce. And so if you’re going through a divorce, at least with a prenup, you decide what happens rather than the government deciding what’s happened.
So for anyone who’s listening, who is thinking of getting married and wants to get a prenup, something to talk to your lawyer about.
[01:03:32] Jessy: Ooh, that’s invaluable advice and it’s very true. My partner went through divorce and yeah, we’re going off on a tangent, but these are important things, ladies.
Yeah, man. Like they’re basically, it’s like we’re gonna bring it back to the conversation though. Putting things in writing makes everybody accountable to those things. Whatever you leave up in the air, whatever is wishy-washy, whether it’s the government making the decision or let’s say you get sued, maybe your influencer contract really goes awry yeah, like the government or so basically it is up in the air and put the worst case scenario out there. Who do you not want to be deciding these things for you? What is the worst judgment that can happen? That is all possible unless it’s in writing, unless you protect yourself, your company, your clients, all the things.
So I don’t know, we need to get out the, like we have to become more comfortable as negotiators asking for things. I appreciate though your advice, cuz is it like, maybe that’s someone’s insecurity who’s listening. This is them speaking like I’m insecure about asking for things.
Sometimes I feel uncomfortable. Like I don’t wanna mess up the relationship. Am I pushy? Am I to this, to that? Your advice is invaluable. It’s the how, the, how, the tone, all those things that makes a huge difference. So if nothing more, there’s so much takeaway from this conversation. If nothing else, take that away from this conversation.
So let’s do a rapid fire cuz I wanna get through a bunch of stuff with you and I just want people to get so much value from this conversation. So you named a ton of stuff in contracts that are like the invaluable, like five things worth scrutinizing. If you look at nothing else, look at those things.
There’s so many others though. So we’re gonna play a little game. Hope you have a fun time with me and I always keep your foot on your toes. I want for you to share the first word that comes to your mind. Don’t think too much about it. And these are all things that are part of an influencer contract.
So are you ready? And are you down to have some fun ?
[01:06:17] Tanya: Yes. I’m always so nervous about these things because I never know if I just have one word. So I’m gonna maybe be a little extra and give you two to three words if it needs to be, but yes.
[01:06:29] Jessy: You have one word, Tanya . As your friend, I’m gonna make you work for the I know one word. I’m gonna hold you so accountable cause I love you. Are you ready? We’re gonna jump into it. Okay. My first word and I get two words. . You get one. What word comes to mind when I say paid? Amplification?
[01:06:52] Tanya: Visibility.
[01:06:55] Jessy: I love it. Visibility. Interesting. Okay. Music licensing.
[01:07:02] Tanya: Correct. Way. Correct way. . .
[01:07:07] Jessy: She had to throw it in there. I love you. You’re a rulebreaker. I like it. The next word, reshoots. It could be a phrase, maybe it could be like a phrase.
[01:07:23] Tanya: Not listening.
[01:07:25] Jessy: Not listening. Reshoots. Okay. Not listening. And then the last word, pay disparity. What word comes, what word or phrase comes to mind?
[01:07:36] Tanya: Need to do better.
[01:07:39] Jessy: Need to do better. I love it. I have one last question for you, which I can’t believe we’re like at the end of our conversation.
And for those of you who are watching live our members, if you have any questions of your own, jot them down in the chat right now cause we’re gonna be pulling them. So you can chat with Tanya too cuz she’s incredible. I hope you see that. My last question for you today is one, what is sorry, let me phrase that. What is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self?
[01:08:16] Tanya: I think that, piece of advice I would give myself is to don’t be afraid to try new things. I think that the ideas, our industry, something I realized later in my career was that this industry is moving very fast and furious and pivoting and changing course is not a bad thing. And trying new and like I was saying before, and failing isn’t a fail. It’s learning for the next challenge and learning for that next chapter.
So the idea of just not being afraid to do more and to do. Bigger.
[01:09:20] Jessy: I love that. I love that so much. I appreciate that. It’s like that’s the exciting thing. Like these are exciting things to think about too. That’s awesome. So thank you for that. Thank you guys so much for listening.
If any of you guys have any questions or comments, I see some of you guys are tuning in live, drop it into the chat right now. I will shout you out in our podcast. I’ll bring your comments up on screen like I did for Katie’s. I’d love to hear from you guys. Do you guys enjoy this conversation? What do you do you want us to do more of these with having.
Our guests, like you get the live, like this is totally live raw, unedited, and you can like chat with Tanya and you can ask questions and you can make comments like, should we do this more often? I just appreciate you guys will sing. So thank you. I’m gonna bring up this comment one more time. One was from Katie.
So Katie, I love that your picture shows up to you. Not everybody like has their picture cuz it’s linked to your YouTube. So thank you guys so much for tuning in. Tanya, thank you for being a wealth of information such a like, awesome human being. I like I can’t express enough I hope you know how much I appreciate you.
And Katie also says, thank you so much for this great talk, Tanya, and she’s one of our members tuning in live. Thank you to our members who get to tune in live to these conversations. Thank you to our listeners who get to tune in on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And we’re also on YouTube because you get to see Tanya’s beautiful face.
Any like parting words that you want to say before we wrap it up today?
[01:11:23] Tanya: I just wanna say thank you, Jesse, for everything that you have built and the love fest is mutual. I really do think that what you have provided for this community in an open space for people to speak very candidly about, the good, the bad, and the ugly of the industry in a very collaborative and non negative. Some things we say are negative, right? Because there’s always some something to talk about, but not a bashing way, right? And in a way that is very constructive and very growth oriented, I think is incredible. So to have this resource is incredible.
So bravo to you and to everyone who’s a part of the community for making it better. I think that what’s so great about Wiim is that as wonderful as Jessie is, but I will sing her praises ditto to everything that she said and just the rubber and glue bounces back to her.
But the idea that WIIM is only as good as the participants. And so the idea that as people are communicating and as people are growing and listening and taking advantage, I think we all can do better so, I think it’s incredible and all of us in this to, to build something better than ourselves.
A lot of people will say there’s things that you can do for a charity and why are you doing this for? Someone said to me the other day if you did all of the things that you do within your industry, if you do it within organizations like but I do that too. But this is something that I’m very passionate about because if the idea of building and growing and influencer marketing and social media and creator space and the idea of building and growing better creators and creating an idea that we’re in this for truly the next phase of, where Web3 and NFTs and all these things are grow, are going and doing, if it’s not done for good and it’s not done in a way where it’s positive, it can very easily take over our lives in a very negative way.
So I think we’re all in this to make sure that we’re doing better, and I think having WIIM as a resource to, to help us do that as a community has truly been incredible. So thank you.
[01:13:52] Jessy: Thank you. I couldn’t agree with you more in terms of the community is only as amazing as its members we have people like Mackenzie who’s tuning in and said thank you both. I loved this. And Katie again, like love having the WIIM network. You guys are incredible.
Seriously, like when people are on the fence about being in it, I’m like, make sure the timing’s right because the more that you are willing to invest into the community, you’ll get that back tenfold. It only takes a little bit too. Yeah. I love what you’re talking about, about like causes and just things that are like really legitimately important to you.
It sounds like being in your Jewish community is really important to you. Mentorship is really important to you. And we can also architect the life of our dreams. I talk about this all the time but isn’t it incredible to be able to like, combine all of those things and like now I don’t know, I don’t, I’m, couldn’t you do like social media for your synagogue and help them get the word out more and get more incredible, like members of their congregation.
I always see through line synergies. Anyways, I could go on and talk to everyone. Oh, and then you have the balls to talk about Web3. I’m trying to end this conversation, Tanya come on. I will have to have you back on, obviously. But anyways, I thank you for chatting today. Thank you guys so much for tuning in and we will see you guys next Tuesday. Bye guys.
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